Topic: 105 Gh/s ASIC miner: Redhash by TAV. (Limited availability on eBay). - page 6. (Read 42043 times)

Noted. And were this a common usage, I might even agree. But ROI is a very specific term from accounting, not a general usage term. Having now been on this forum for some time, I do understand what people mean. When I first came here, seeing this made my mind twitch. Took me a while to understand that people were not ACTUALLY referring to ROI, but to breakeven.

Not that it really improved matters, because they were getting their panties in a bunch over not meeting breakeven in a two to three week period. (that wasn't aimed at you, Puppet, you've been pretty reasonable even when you were clearly raving mad ).

"a return" in this context is synonymous to benefit and to me at least, without qualification implies a non negative, non zero value. The context makes it quite clear and Im perfectly fine if people leave out unneeded words.

Compare it to discount. In theory a discount can also be zero or even negative, but when someone says they get a discount, a positive number is assumed.

I'm on your side on this, but since you are correcting technical errors, I am too.

To put this in some perspective, the study of economics is my hobby. Particularly the Austrian school, but in this case we're talking general accounting. I've made this point several times, and been called a troll for it. I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely irritated by the misuse of a well understood accounting term.

There are three ways that a hypothetical buyer would not make ROI on this.

1. The unit is DOA (which you have contingencies in place for.)
2. The buyer puts it in their trophy collection and never mines with it.
3. The buyer doesn't use it, gets a refund, and goes on their merry way.

ROI stands for Return ON Investment. Not Return OF Investment. If it mines at all, you make a ROI. This is not an ambiguity or a hedge, this is what the term means. ROI is a moving target. Now if you, or the hypothetical buyer, says "it will not make ROI in X timeframe, they MIGHT have an argument, based solely on the above three conditions. What the majority of the people on this forum MEAN, seems to be breakeven, which is an entirely different subject. This isn't picking nits, this is what the term means.

ROI can be positive, negative, or breakeven, but if it makes you one satoshi, you have achieved ROI.

I find this misuse egregious for the same reason I find the religious argument "it's just a theory" to be egregious. At least in that case, there are two different meanings to the term. In the case of ROI, there is not.

Please realize you make an incorrect statement out of literal rounding errors.

Demonstration: change your analysis' power cost to $0.085/kWh (still very close to the worldwide's average, 15% below it, hardly what I would call "nearly free power"), and change the monthly difficulty increase from 100% to 95% (just to demonstrate you are playing with rounding errors) and ROI is achieved in Jan 2014: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/5ce6d144b8

Therefore you cannot claim "ROI is just not there", just as one cannot claim "insanely great profits are there" (with a 19 BTC price and ~100% monthly diff increases). Which is why I am taking the middle-ground position of "ROI will approximately be achieved (either slight losses or slight profits) in this hypothetical scenario".

Also, as others pointed out, I am not claiming a ROI in all scenarios. Fundamentally, neither I, nor you, know future monthly diff increases:
- They could be 50% in which case great profits will be made.
- They could be 100% in which case ROI will approximately be achieved.
- They could be 150% in which case losses will happen.

Holy shit. Fuck this loudmouth piece of shit, SOOOOO much.

Listen up, you feckless waste of oxygen, their problem is not scalability, their problem is vendors whose "no bullshit" contracts are all bullshit.

I hope Avalon goes bankrupt, and these guys find a reliable vendor that isn't run by a smug self-assuming asshole like yourself. Of all of the people who ought to shut the fuck up about best business practices, you're pretty much top of the list.

"Scale properly" indeed...  

No he's not. His defense is valid. Maybe incorrect, but we don't know that.

He ain't holding a gun to any of the people bidding. They are or are not doing their own due diligence. Clearly, they believe it worth the price, or they wouldn't bid on it.

That's only true if you go back in time and start mining Sept. 1.  If you start on Oct. 1 they are only profitable by 0.05 BTC with 55% diff increase and 100% increase is just bad.

Edit:  I miscalculated the 55%, they are profitable if it is only 55%.  But I don't believe 55% will be what we see.

No, he's also trying to justify the ROI on them. That's where he's going too far.

Then don't bid.

There are problems with the genesisblock calculator in terms of granularity.  Either other people feel they're worth it, or they're paying more than they expect to get.  In any case, all mrb is doing is running the auction and providing information on the hardware.

Don't even try to defend the ROI. It's just not there. These will not break even at the current bid prices unless you have nearly free power.

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/cf8f2331e7

AdamKD: we guarantee all redhash units achieve 105 Ghash/sec +/- 5%.

astutiumRob: diff will be 149M at least for domestic customers (which we expect to be the majority of our customer base.) Next diff is estimated to be only 180M per allchains.info, very far from the 298M people were quoting. Also the average worldwide electricity price is $0.10/kWh. It makes sense to pick this one as the default. And again we expect our auction to naturally attract those with lower than average rates.

Update:

For international shipping, we highly recommend to ship the Redhash unit without the Power Supply Unit as its presence may cause issues at Customs during import. You should instead purchase a standard PSU on your local market (850 Watt minimum). Of course the decision is up to you, but if you choose to have the Redhash unit shipped without PSU, we will take 0.5 BTC off the price you bid.

i hereby and solemnly declare +1

It's not hating, it's math. I don't think anyone has any hate for TAV (a miracle by itself).

The problem is that the difficulty is correcting at such a sharp rate over such a brief period of time that you have to buy it at a price that is worthwhile in a realistic sense.

The returns get squeezed faster than someone slamming on the brakes.

I'd have to agree. At the next difficulty change 15 BTC will just be too high.

good job guys....  quit hating on people that have something inhand to sell today....  105ghs this week is better than 1TH/s that hasnt been prototyped and is months away in a best case scenario....

Very nice job,

I am wrong or "in hand" is the most competitive price per GH and power consumption?

We can't compare this with other units that in fact don't exist.

Today in hand I see the ASICminer blades and this unit... and this one is by far a best investment.

TMC

We'll be at (or about-to-be-at) 200 million when they arrive a couple of days later though, and you had to fiddle the electricty rate down to show it getting an ROI :p

It also incorrectly assumes the difficulty will remain constant for a whole month - which it never will - so (putting aside the %age growth will eventually slow down argument) generally it paints a far-too-optimistic picture !

Sadly though with the power consumption, even though it's a great design and engineering feat, and major kudos for actually having a product rather than pre-ordered vapourware, anything over 8BTC is unlikely to ever break even for the majority of potential clients.

It's a similar statement, but not the same - there's no question mark so it can't be a question.  Also, no questions posed by me ask about the future only the past and the present - though the last one might be classified as a fishing expedition  .

Same question was posed and answered just one post up. And judging by the answer,  I wouldnt be surprised if the empty cases will soon be filled with bitfury's.