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Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam? - page 35. (Read 123107 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
There is no significant market for that level of SHA-256 hashing outside of Bitcoin (except maybe SHA-256 brute force attacking).  

Think about it for a second.  Even a crappy CPU can perform tens of millions of hashes per second (remember a Bitcoin hash is almost 2 complete SHA-256 hashes).  While SHA is used for things like keeping passwords secure even Google doesn't need the ability to process 2+ billion logins every second.   If ever single human on the planet had a gmail account and these boards had enough bandwidth it would only require 3 boards to ensure every the entire planet could be authenticated every single second.


If 3 boards could (which they can't due to other limitations like bandwidth) handle 6 billion simultaneous logins how large would you imagine the market is for these boards?

SHA-256 has other uses (hashing for signatures, resource organization, etc) but likewise there are no applications (military, financial, or otherwise) that need 1 billion hashes per second.  TLS & SSH uses SHA but an individual server is working on the scale of thousands of session or less not billions.  SHA is used for hashing a document in order to digitally sign it but even for the US government an entry level CPU has enough computation power to hash thousand page document in a fraction of a second.  For stream hashing (hashing large amounts of data) the bottleneck is the ability to get data TO the CPU/FPGA/ASIC.  

For example this board is able to process 2 billion hashes per second based on 512 byte blocks.  Thats roughly 1 trillion bytes per second.  So to hash documents at that speed would require an I/O bus (and main memory, or hard drives) capable of 1 TB per second.   No hashing engine can hash faster than data can be delivered to it.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
This ( only good for SHA256 algo when FPGA should be able to flash FW and make it good for all algos ) sounds like they are using some existing SHA256 processor and not expensive FPGA from Xilinx with crap performance and high wattage and high pricing. Maybe this is real indeed and those targets can be achieved with a processor designed to do only one thing and one thing only at the best of its ability : BTC mining. Anybody know of an existing CPU for SHA256 in particular ? Maybe they are using military technology Tongue
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 252
Watercooling the world of mining
I am especially curious for the rigbox.

I would like to get some additional technical details here.

As the number of cards (32) used does not correlate with the proposed hashrate (54,4 Gh/s) altough it was stated that there are the same cards used.
It would be interesting wich system is employed here.

Also i'd like to know wich price range can be expected here and if it is possible to start just with the rig box including one or two cards to limit startup costs.
BFL
full member
Activity: 217
Merit: 100
*Awaits public demo that will change the face of BTC mining FOREVER*

Can your product also be used for things like :

-WPA and rainbow tables
-vanity BTC address generation
-integer dependent general custom computation ( e.g. is there any way to make those FPGA universally compatible with OpenCL and other code like GPUs are etc. so they can also be used to mine say SolidCoin not only Bitcoin etc. )

Thanks !

Our processors are designed for SHA256 specific applications, 1 to 8 level multi step processes only.

Regards,
BFL
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
so they can also be used to mine say SolidCoin not only Bitcoin etc. )

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here about how and why FPGAs are so good for Bitcoin mining that I don't even have the time to begin addressing, but I'll say this much: Only two algorithms have been chosen thus far for mining Bitcoin and its associated forks: SHA256 and sCrypt. sCrypt is used for "CPU friendly" currencies and is CPU friendly explicitly because it uses more RAM than is typically available in on-chip cache for both GPUs and FPGAs, but not more than is typically available in L1/L2 cache on your CPU. FPGAs are a poor choice for sCrypt mining for the same reason that GPUs are: they require too much on-chip cache.

That said, if the BFL boxes turn out not to be vaporware there's only three options for what's inside: an FPGA, an ASIC or some kind of existing SHA256 hardware. In all cases but FPGA the device will likely only be good for the one purpose of its design. Even if they are FPGAs it's unlikely you'll be able to accelerate sCrypt with them since sCrypt was explicitly built to avoid such acceleration.

Says it has upgradable firmware and that they will be shipping in waves as they finish the fw for each application.

That's not saying I believe it's real...
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
so they can also be used to mine say SolidCoin not only Bitcoin etc. )

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here about how and why FPGAs are so good for Bitcoin mining that I don't even have the time to begin addressing, but I'll say this much: Only two algorithms have been chosen thus far for mining Bitcoin and its associated forks: SHA256 and sCrypt. sCrypt is used for "CPU friendly" currencies and is CPU friendly explicitly because it uses more RAM than is typically available in on-chip cache for both GPUs and FPGAs, but not more than is typically available in L1/L2 cache on your CPU. FPGAs are a poor choice for sCrypt mining for the same reason that GPUs are: they require too much on-chip cache.

That said, if the BFL boxes turn out not to be vaporware there's only three options for what's inside: an FPGA, an ASIC or some kind of existing SHA256 hardware. In all cases but FPGA the device will likely only be good for the one purpose of its design. Even if they are FPGAs it's unlikely you'll be able to accelerate sCrypt with them since sCrypt was explicitly built to avoid such acceleration.
hero member
Activity: 561
Merit: 500
Hi guys.

I see there were some well intentioned questions.  Here are the answers.

1.  Corporate registry - The company is a 'C' corp registered in the state of Wyoming as BF Labs Inc.  Why Wyoming when you're not based there?  Mostly due to it's favorable tax and legal climate.  Operating in the same state of incorporation exposes the company to additional tax liabilities.  You might also find it interesting to know that the majority of US domiciled fortune 500 companies are either Delaware or Wyoming corporations for these same reasons.  Intel is a good example.  

2.  Drivers - We're currently working on driver support for Win / Linux / Mac.  I can't say we'll have all three done by release.  However, at this point it's very likely.  Windows, then Linux, then Mac is our dev priority order.

3.  USB - Someone asked how many units can be hosted by one computer.  127 maximum units can chain from each of your computer's USB ports.  Since the actual data passing through the USB chain is very small, there is no exaustion.  However, you'ill need a very large USB hub to pull this off, and the hubs themselves consume a USB id, so in practical terms the total number will be something less.

If you have any additional good natured questions, I'll be happy to answer them.  On the other hand, if the thread degenerates, I'll be happy to leave you wait for our public demo.

Kind regards,
BFL

PS.  Sorry to be crabby, but you guys deserve it.



Thanks for the answers. As I mentioned before, you can put all the scammer speculation to rest by inviting Inaba to come take a quick tour of your facilities in KC. Will you please invite him over this week?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
*Awaits public demo that will change the face of BTC mining FOREVER*

Can your product also be used for things like :

-WPA and rainbow tables
-vanity BTC address generation
-integer dependent general custom computation ( e.g. is there any way to make those FPGA universally compatible with OpenCL and other code like GPUs are etc. so they can also be used to mine say SolidCoin not only Bitcoin etc. )

Thanks !
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Good luck, And dont forget, Goat is paying 10%  of your costs. In his words ""I will pay 10% of any ones costs to buy any of this guys products just for the fucking lulz. ". Chances of him honoring that seem vastly slimmer than BFL coming up with a product however.
sr. member
Activity: 349
Merit: 250
We plan on demonstrating our BitForce Single product before accepting pre-orders for our Rig Box system on the 25th of this month.  The date will be published here once it's fixed.

BitForce Single PCB's are used in the Rig Box platform.  However, the Rig Box also employs parts unique to itself.  Why would we go to the trouble for such a small market?  We didn't.  Our product design is influenced by other factors beyond hash mining.

Regards,
BFL

All you that were betting with each other, screw that, I'll bet by placing a pre-order. If I win, I come out more ahead than if I won a silly bet.
Or you could do both.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
We plan on demonstrating our BitForce Single product before accepting pre-orders for our Rig Box system on the 25th of this month.  The date will be published here once it's fixed.

BitForce Single PCB's are used in the Rig Box platform.  However, the Rig Box also employs parts unique to itself.  Why would we go to the trouble for such a small market?  We didn't.  Our product design is influenced by other factors beyond hash mining.

Regards,
BFL

All you that were betting with each other, screw that, I'll bet by placing a pre-order. If I win, I come out more ahead than if I won a silly bet.
BFL
full member
Activity: 217
Merit: 100

PS.  Sorry to be crabby, but you guys deserve it.

Amen!

Is there any news on initial delivery or demonstration dates?
Also the rig box, is it using the same board as the singles, and if so, how come 32 of those get ~54x the throughput?

We plan on demonstrating our BitForce Single product before accepting pre-orders for our Rig Box system on the 25th of this month.  The date will be published here once it's fixed.

BitForce Single PCB's are used in the Rig Box platform.  However, the Rig Box also employs parts unique to itself.  Why would we go to the trouble for such a small market?  We didn't.  Our product design is influenced by other factors beyond hash mining.

Regards,
BFL
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500

PS.  Sorry to be crabby, but you guys deserve it.

Amen!

Is there any news on initial delivery or demonstration dates?
Also the rig box, is it using the same board as the singles, and if so, how come 32 of those get ~54x the throughput?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
1.  Corporate registry - The company is a 'C' corp registered in the state of Wyoming as BF Labs Inc.  Why Wyoming when you're not based there?  Mostly due to it's favorable tax and legal climate.  Operating in the same state of incorporation exposes the company to additional tax liabilities.  You might also find it interesting to know that the majority of US domiciled fortune 500 companies are either Delaware or Wyoming corporations for these same reasons.  Intel is a good example.  

So why does your website state your company name is Butterfly Labs Inc.  

Quote
© 2011 Butterfly Labs Inc.

A name which isn't registered in any state.

Are you Butterfly Labs Inc?  If so then why is your WY registration BF Labs Inc?
Are you BF Labs Inc? If so then does your website state you are Butterfly Labs Inc?

Close enough, or abbreviated isn't sufficient for the legal name of a company.  Also there is no fictitious business name license issues in either state (which is another legal way for a company to operate under multiple names i.e BF Labs & Butterfly Labs Inc.).
BFL
full member
Activity: 217
Merit: 100
Hi guys.

I see there were some well intentioned questions.  Here are the answers.

1.  Corporate registry - The company is a 'C' corp registered in the state of Wyoming as BF Labs Inc.  Why Wyoming when you're not based there?  Mostly due to it's favorable tax and legal climate.  Operating in the same state of incorporation exposes the company to additional tax liabilities.  You might also find it interesting to know that the majority of US domiciled fortune 500 companies are either Delaware or Wyoming corporations for these same reasons.  Intel is a good example.  

2.  Drivers - We're currently working on driver support for Win / Linux / Mac.  I can't say we'll have all three done by release.  However, at this point it's very likely.  Windows, then Linux, then Mac is our dev priority order.

3.  USB - Someone asked how many units can be hosted by one computer.  127 maximum units can chain from each of your computer's USB ports.  Since the actual data passing through the USB chain is very small, there is no exaustion.  However, you'ill need a very large USB hub to pull this off, and the hubs themselves consume a USB id, so in practical terms the total number will be something less.

If you have any additional good natured questions, I'll be happy to answer them.  On the other hand, if the thread degenerates, I'll be happy to leave you wait for our public demo.

Kind regards,
BFL

PS.  Sorry to be crabby, but you guys deserve it.

hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I am sure BFL guy will explain why it has been delayed either on the website or in this thread Roll Eyes

Waiting for the scam to arrive ?
rph
full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
4-8 weeks probably means 8+ weeks. If they meant 4 weeks, they would have said 2-4 weeks.
Marketing 101!

-rph
sr. member
Activity: 349
Merit: 250
Well the thread was started 18 Oct. BFL has a 4 to 8 week delivery time for pre-order units.  So we are approaching the delivery time zone.  Some time (unless we hear otherwise) on or around (hopefully before) 18 Dec, someone will receive a single.

Let's see what happens.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
Given the high cost of FPGA that would be beyond stupid.  It would be like car company selling 8 cylinder cars and then making a compact model which has 4 cylinders by just turning off 4 of the cylinders (but keeping all the cost of 8 cylinder engine) and putting lackluster cooling in it. 

FPGA is very very very expensive.  Every clock cycle is worth something.  You don't build a product which could run at 1.7 GH and say "well 1 GH is good enough because we fucked up the cooling and power requirements."  It just doesn't make any sense. 

However, if they were ASICs, they could be designed with fuses and then have no redesign cost when they want to increase the output. The idea was Gmaxwell's, not mine Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
+/- 10% is one thing +/- 70% is another.  

It seems illogical that they would design multiple different boards with different FPGA given how small the market is.   The "single" would be fine for use in a cluster, maybe having different connectors, and communication methods but roughly the same design.  Having a different board makes little sense.  I mean 1.05GH using 2 FPGA for one product and then 1.7GH per board for the second product.

If the rig consisted of similar dual FPGA designs one could expect it to be roughly 1.05 * 32 = 33.6GH/s.  Even +10% would be 36.96GH which makes the 54.4 number illogical.  Not the first thing w/ this company.
It may be that the single is capable of performing 1.7 GH/s, when in a properly efficient case.  In that little box with the 80mm fan and tiny heat sink, and small power requirement, it may only be capable of 1.05.  The same unit in a properly vented, higher powered case it may be able to reach 1.7.  Like I said high risk speculation on my part.

In any case I am hoping we'll have a better grasp of the situation in 2 or 3 weeks.  Let's see.

You are far too optimistic. Better cooling will not cause a 70% leap in efficiency.
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