To be really safe, he really needs to get out of Thailand, period. He can go to near by South East Asian country as refuge and go to US embassy. You don't want to stay in a Thailand jail even for 24 hours, that region has one of the worst prison ever.
I just pity Elwar though, he seems to be enjoying all the fruits of his hard work and of course his freedom because of crypto, but just in a blink of an eye, he is now living in a night mare.
I don't think that US will easily gave up on an American citizen to fail death penalty in some countries.
Topic: [2019-04-22]American bitcoin trader may face death penalty over 'sea home' - page 2. (Read 842 times)
May 02, 2019, 11:12:23 AM
May 02, 2019, 10:31:22 AM
If he returns to the US, could he face extradition back to Thailand, I really doubt it since the US probably won't send one of their citizens to face a death sentence? If yes, what choices he has?
Sending a US citizen to Thailand to face a death sentence will just give Democrats a nice reason to tackle the whole government and even Trump himself. It will not happen.His best choice is to get out of Thailand and/or find a route to US embassy...
May 02, 2019, 10:01:40 AM
Oh, now that the article mentioned fb,I searched for his facebook and seems he did posts a few days ago:
https://www.facebook.com/chad.elwartowski
For those who don't want to open the link and go to fb:
Since he says that he doesn't want to reveal his location, probably he is still in Thailand...
But, and there is a big but here
If he returns to the US, could he face extradition back to Thailand, I really doubt it since the US probably won't send one of their citizens to face a death sentence? If yes, what choices he has?
https://www.facebook.com/chad.elwartowski
For those who don't want to open the link and go to fb:
Quote
Just checking in to let everyone know that Nadia and I are still safe. I have been avoiding social media to avoid making any mistakes that may reveal our location.
When this all started I was quite disheartened. I never wanted an ordinary life, I wanted to be different, to be extraordinary. But when the response to my extraordinary life was a death sentence I felt that perhaps there was no place in this world for thinking differently, perhaps I should resign myself to an ordinary life and just go with the flow. Give up on freedom.
But the outpouring of support that Nadia and I have received this past couple of weeks has been amazing. People from all walks of life, from all over the world have done some incredible things to help us. The people that have come through for us have done the extraordinary when they did not have to. For that I am both grateful and humbled.
There are so many people I would like to thank for keeping us alive. Some truly honorable people that I cannot mention due to discretion, but I hope they know that they made the right decision in helping us.
We will live. And we will continue to be extraordinary.
When this all started I was quite disheartened. I never wanted an ordinary life, I wanted to be different, to be extraordinary. But when the response to my extraordinary life was a death sentence I felt that perhaps there was no place in this world for thinking differently, perhaps I should resign myself to an ordinary life and just go with the flow. Give up on freedom.
But the outpouring of support that Nadia and I have received this past couple of weeks has been amazing. People from all walks of life, from all over the world have done some incredible things to help us. The people that have come through for us have done the extraordinary when they did not have to. For that I am both grateful and humbled.
There are so many people I would like to thank for keeping us alive. Some truly honorable people that I cannot mention due to discretion, but I hope they know that they made the right decision in helping us.
We will live. And we will continue to be extraordinary.
Since he says that he doesn't want to reveal his location, probably he is still in Thailand...
But, and there is a big but here
If he returns to the US, could he face extradition back to Thailand, I really doubt it since the US probably won't send one of their citizens to face a death sentence? If yes, what choices he has?
May 02, 2019, 09:36:40 AM
still in Thailand
article doesn't say that
they aren't, thank god
Do you think they would hide if they have left Thailand? That would not make any sense, unless they are in a country that can extradited them to Thailand. Article does not say explicitly that they still are, but it can be concluded by a few sentences that were published.
Quote
"Nadia and I live in fear daily," Elwartowski told The Arizona Republic in an email interview. "We are still safe but we are in hiding.
Quote
In a Facebook post over the weekend, Elwartowski said he and Summergirl have been "avoiding social media to avoid making any mistakes that may reveal our location."
May 02, 2019, 09:12:20 AM
still in Thailand
article doesn't say that
they aren't, thank god
I see no post from him but:
Quote
Last Active: April 30, 2019, 03:36:25 PM
So at least he has some internet connection, any of the WOT members know more?
May 02, 2019, 06:50:54 AM
still in Thailand
article doesn't say that
they aren't, thank god
May 02, 2019, 06:22:16 AM
Still no news?
News is that Chad Elwartowski and his girlfriend are still in Thailand, for now they are safe but they are hiding and live in fear. I guess he want to stay with his girlfriend (she is have son and family), otherwise US Embassy would most likely have pulled him out of the country.
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/05/01/bitcoin-trader-chad-elwartowski-nadia-summergirl-seastead-still-running-from-thai-authorities/3643212002/
Has anyone seen a real legal analysis of this situation yet? Maritime law is definitely not my strong suit.
Maritime law does not really matter in this case, the government of Thailand accused them by this law :
“Section 119: Intent to cause injury to the nation” states that, “Whoever does any act with intent to cause the country or any part thereof to descend under the sovereignty of any foreign state, or to deteriorate the independence of the state, shall be punished with death or imprisonment for life.”
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30367972
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30367972
May 01, 2019, 03:47:16 PM
Has anyone seen a real legal analysis of this situation yet? Maritime law is definitely not my strong suit. Was the seastead technically in international waters or was it within the 12 nautical mile limit? The Independent article states this and not much else:
It sounds like that's what pissed the Thai government off -- not the seastead per se but the fact that they were trying to get others to join them:
Routes change over time. A route that might have been rammed 100 years ago is empty now due to economics, short cuts being built or new technologies. A few thousand people anchored to the sea bed some miles beyond the horizon may not be the most welcome development in that scenario.
It sounds like that's what pissed the Thai government off -- not the seastead per se but the fact that they were trying to get others to join them:
Quote
“By claiming they own a floating house and using social media tried to sell this kind of house, also they claimed that their house is not under any country’s sovereignty, which is not true. And this could cause other people to misunderstand and it is threatening our national security.”
May 01, 2019, 08:59:58 AM
I do not understand either. There are so many other countries with much milder laws. In relation to sovereignty, in relation to taxes. Especially in small countries that are tax havens and tourist destinations.
Probably his girlfriend played a role in this, and besides people tend to look at exotic locations when looking at such projects.
A seastead in Thailand or Indonesia would sound a lot better that one in Spain, right?
Pus he needed waters that are calm most of the year, no hurricanes, no storms or high waves and acceptable climate throughout the years.
Unfortunately not many fit into that, add the fact that you don't want to be in a pirate and smugglers infected water like Somalia or Honduras and you're really low on options.
Still no news?
May 01, 2019, 08:28:35 AM
I think a big mistake was made by deciding to do something like this near Thailand, which has very strict laws for all possible offenses.
I do not understand either. There are so many other countries with much milder laws. In relation to sovereignty, in relation to taxes. Especially in small countries that are tax havens and tourist destinations.
April 27, 2019, 03:48:46 PM
Their website was very clear that the seastead had been purposefully built in an area away from shipping lanes. If I recall correctly, it said it was in an area often used by small fishing boats, so the authorities can't use that as an excuse in this specific case without also arresting all those fishermen.
As you say though, even just a few hundred people deciding they were fed up and setting up shop all around a country could wreak havoc for their shipping routes. It's probably not in the best interests of the seasteaders either - one serious accident and a few hundred shipping containers spilled in to the ocean and you can guarantee that governments across the world would clamp down harshly on any future efforts.
As you say though, even just a few hundred people deciding they were fed up and setting up shop all around a country could wreak havoc for their shipping routes. It's probably not in the best interests of the seasteaders either - one serious accident and a few hundred shipping containers spilled in to the ocean and you can guarantee that governments across the world would clamp down harshly on any future efforts.
Routes change over time. A route that might have been rammed 100 years ago is empty now due to economics, short cuts being built or new technologies. A few thousand people anchored to the sea bed some miles beyond the horizon may not be the most welcome development in that scenario.
People often point to places like Sealand, but that was built by the British government and hasn't gone anywhere since. They tolerate that for comedy value or for the sake of quiet life. It would be very different if it had turned up and dug in overnight like this.
People who will build the next seasteads should consult with neighbouring countries first, or prepare to possible confrontations in some other ways.
Hmm. I reckon they should stick to boats. Unsexy, unoriginal, but far more peaceful. That said, I wonder what would happen if someone planted something in the vicinity of Point Nemo. It's 1000 miles to the nearest dot of land there. Finding somewhere shallow enough might be an issue. Along with remaining alive.
April 27, 2019, 03:46:37 PM
The funniest, or rather most striking part is that they are going to be prosecuted like invaders, like they were threatening the independence of Thailand! Give me a break!
Don't you guys find it borderline crazy that camping in the middle of the ocean can make you an enemy of the state? And I thought North Korea was detached from reality, but this country is almost on the same level.
Don't you guys find it borderline crazy that camping in the middle of the ocean can make you an enemy of the state? And I thought North Korea was detached from reality, but this country is almost on the same level.
As you point out SE Asia has its fair share of territorial tensions and before you know it you'd have thousands of Chinese people magically deciding seasteads are a great idea a few miles outside other countries if this was permitted to thrive.
This is what I'm thinking, governments take even the slightest hints of violation of their territory very seriously, because it can set up a precedent or lead to actual territory grabs. For example, Russia says that their military personnel just happen to be on vacation in warzones, imagine if they start popping seasteads right near the borders of territorial waters of some countries, and then use them for some provocations. People who will build the next seasteads should consult with neighbouring countries first, or prepare to possible confrontations in some other ways.
April 27, 2019, 03:39:43 PM
I am not here to side with any government but just because we belong to the Bitcoin community, and we have the idea of seasteading in our heart do not mean that we should not be working with the government to make sure that what we are doing can never trigger any governmental response. The government with all of its resources, might and influence can bring big hassle to any ordinary citizen that is why we have to avoid wrangling with it. Fighting the government for the sake of having the right to live in the sea may not be worth it in my opinion. I hope the two can find this problem resolved as soon as possible as being fugitives can be a big worry.
Thai government do treat this thing as a threat and seeing that image above which they do actually remove that seastead and they are just too exaggerated on this case and it seems that they do really hunt for
some terrorist.Hoping for the safety of the couple.
April 27, 2019, 03:17:19 PM
more about shipping lanes
Their website was very clear that the seastead had been purposefully built in an area away from shipping lanes. If I recall correctly, it said it was in an area often used by small fishing boats, so the authorities can't use that as an excuse in this specific case without also arresting all those fishermen.As you say though, even just a few hundred people deciding they were fed up and setting up shop all around a country could wreak havoc for their shipping routes. It's probably not in the best interests of the seasteaders either - one serious accident and a few hundred shipping containers spilled in to the ocean and you can guarantee that governments across the world would clamp down harshly on any future efforts.
April 27, 2019, 03:10:39 PM
Any government is just a big protection racket gang, so from this point of view it totally makes sense that they would bully a private citizens who decided that it doesn't need them. One of the biggest criticism of seasteading is that they can't protect themselves because they wouldn't have a strong enough military, and this case clearly demonstrates it. Even if we imagine that other countries and organizations like UN will condemn such attacks, it would mean absolutely nothing, because no one would fight for a seastead.
I think it's less to do with tax, more about shipping lanes and sovereignty. As you point out SE Asia has its fair share of territorial tensions and before you know it you'd have thousands of Chinese people magically deciding seasteads are a great idea a few miles outside other countries if this was permitted to thrive.
It's little to do with these particular people, everything to do with shutting down potential problems before they get any traction. It was very naive of the builders to place it there, but the first person to do anything always get a bullet in the head.
As for the tenants, I guess no news is good news.
April 27, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
The funniest, or rather most striking part is that they are going to be prosecuted like invaders, like they were threatening the independence of Thailand! Give me a break!
Don't you guys find it borderline crazy that camping in the middle of the ocean can make you an enemy of the state? And I thought North Korea was detached from reality, but this country is almost on the same level.
Don't you guys find it borderline crazy that camping in the middle of the ocean can make you an enemy of the state? And I thought North Korea was detached from reality, but this country is almost on the same level.
April 27, 2019, 05:20:31 AM
I think a big mistake was made by deciding to do something like this near Thailand, which has very strict laws for all possible offenses. What is officially listed as an offense here is : “Section 119: Intent to cause injury to the nation” states that, “Whoever does any act with intent to cause the country or any part thereof to descend under the sovereignty of any foreign state, or to deteriorate the independence of the state, shall be punished with death or imprisonment for life.”
What is also important here is fact that Elwartowski is send invitations to other people to join him, and 14 people show some interest to do that. This is something that can not work nowhere near countries like Thailand.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30367972
What is also important here is fact that Elwartowski is send invitations to other people to join him, and 14 people show some interest to do that. This is something that can not work nowhere near countries like Thailand.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30367972
April 27, 2019, 04:39:40 AM
I am not here to side with any government but just because we belong to the Bitcoin community, and we have the idea of seasteading in our heart do not mean that we should not be working with the government to make sure that what we are doing can never trigger any governmental response. The government with all of its resources, might and influence can bring big hassle to any ordinary citizen that is why we have to avoid wrangling with it. Fighting the government for the sake of having the right to live in the sea may not be worth it in my opinion. I hope the two can find this problem resolved as soon as possible as being fugitives can be a big worry.
April 26, 2019, 07:59:31 PM
the trouble with that mindset is that somebody has to do something first, even if it's one step in a series of incremental steps. [..]. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it
Yep, I actually agree here, as an experiment it's interesting.However, the problem in my eyes is more the focus of the project - a solitary seastead home always will need a State or at least a community near for essential services. In this case, it becomes fundamental that this community accepts your presence, which was something that seems to have been lacking in their plans which focused more on physical geography (climate, water depth etc.).
This is a more general critique I have for several "libertarian" projects, not only for Elwar. As I wrote I don't consider libertarian communities without a State impossible, but a lot of factors are often not taken into account.
It is not impossible, however, it would also need a type of protection that only a state can provide. Real military protection with soldiers willing to die to protect your liberty.
April 26, 2019, 06:24:39 PM
This is the first time in my life that I hear such a story, how can the police be hunting them for something so small? it seems that they are some terrorists who will blow up the world, this is a great exaggeration of the government of thailand, years ago a person of my country was sentenced to death for a very small crime. I would not travel to a country like thailand
I feel the same. Thai government is trying to swat a fly with a grenade. They sent a warship to remove 2 unarmed people from a raft.
I read a couple articles about this and the government feels like they are in law because according to them the floating home was within their borders not on international waters like Elwar said. The authorities also claim the home was built without any permits and was built on the entry to the port and a danger to passing ships. I guess if you have something like that you need it to be well lit during the night to avoid being rammed. They also say that they tried to contact the seastead before going there to remove it.
On the other hand it looks like Thailand doesn't respect UN conventions and their waters are wherever they want them to be.
Quote
The bitcoin investor’s floating house was stationed 14 nautical miles off the coast of Thailand. According to the 1982 UN Conventions on the Law of the Sea, ‘every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles’.
Elwar says the army came there to kill them and he's worried they will do it if they find him.
One thing is certain there will be no seastead in Thailand because they cancelled his visa.
Jump to: