Topic: [2019-04-22]American bitcoin trader may face death penalty over 'sea home' - page 3. (Read 897 times)
April 26, 2019, 03:54:03 PM
This is the first time in my life that I hear such a story, how can the police be hunting them for something so small? it seems that they are some terrorists who will blow up the world, this is a great exaggeration of the government of thailand, years ago a person of my country was sentenced to death for a very small crime. I would not travel to a country like thailand
April 26, 2019, 12:24:35 PM
This is the newest photo that I could find. It was made yesterday and according to the article they still haven't found them. I hope they can get away and survive this witch hunt. https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1666424/seastead-lifted-ashore-at-phuket-port
There's also an article saying that "couple’s claim that they are in international waters, and outside of Thai maritime territory, are untrue." Did they miscalculate?
There's also an article saying that "couple’s claim that they are in international waters, and outside of Thai maritime territory, are untrue." Did they miscalculate?
Then the government itself removed it from the sea. The company had already offered to withdraw and pay for all costs. Exactly because it is a complex operation. Unfortunately, the Thai government seems to be little open to dialogue. The ideal would be to remove in a peaceful manner and make clear the rules about any such action in the future.
April 26, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
What a mess. I support Elwar and Thailand reaction is exaggerated like any other fifth world random government...
Hopefully they didn't catch them yet and I hope they will escape easily!
Hopefully they didn't catch them yet and I hope they will escape easily!
There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.
Yes or maybe someone should call Trump and asks him to invade Thailand for threatening the live of a US citizen. The girl however could be in trouble if caught... April 25, 2019, 03:39:05 PM
This is the newest photo that I could find. It was made yesterday and according to the article they still haven't found them. I hope they can get away and survive this witch hunt. https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1666424/seastead-lifted-ashore-at-phuket-port
There's also an article saying that "couple’s claim that they are in international waters, and outside of Thai maritime territory, are untrue." Did they miscalculate?
There's also an article saying that "couple’s claim that they are in international waters, and outside of Thai maritime territory, are untrue." Did they miscalculate?
April 25, 2019, 01:16:42 PM
Your criticism seems to be that Elwar didn't execute every possible detail from the beginning, that's unrealistic for many reasons. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it
Elwar was the first to try. Maybe we could argue that he should have seen this coming, but he deserves alot of respect for at least trying, and it was no insignificant attempt. He spent alot of money & time planning and contructing his seastead, which is more than most people in the seasteading bracket have done
Elwar was the first to try. Maybe we could argue that he should have seen this coming, but he deserves alot of respect for at least trying, and it was no insignificant attempt. He spent alot of money & time planning and contructing his seastead, which is more than most people in the seasteading bracket have done
Elwar did one mistake, in his quest for independence he didn't though what others think of it nor what he could possibly trigger.
And honestly, although I said it once that I'm wondering how happy the thai government is about this I've never thought it would come to this kind of reaction.
But now looking back, it is pretty easy to see why would they react like this, what if the project would have gain traction, a few thousands of those floating around in an untaxed region and slashing their tourism profits, that wouldn't look good in the books, especially for a country that would go bankrupt without it. Plus with all the mess China is doing with its artificial islands on the other side of the peninsula they decided to step in and...what we see now.
Elwar's profile is still not active, did he get away, any updates on this?
April 25, 2019, 01:07:17 PM
Any government is just a big protection racket gang, so from this point of view it totally makes sense that they would bully a private citizens who decided that it doesn't need them. One of the biggest criticism of seasteading is that they can't protect themselves because they wouldn't have a strong enough military, and this case clearly demonstrates it. Even if we imagine that other countries and organizations like UN will condemn such attacks, it would mean absolutely nothing, because no one would fight for a seastead.
April 25, 2019, 12:31:31 PM
the trouble with that mindset is that somebody has to do something first, even if it's one step in a series of incremental steps. [..]. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it
Yep, I actually agree here, as an experiment it's interesting.However, the problem in my eyes is more the focus of the project - a solitary seastead home always will need a State or at least a community near for essential services. In this case, it becomes fundamental that this community accepts your presence, which was something that seems to have been lacking in their plans which focused more on physical geography (climate, water depth etc.).
This is a more general critique I have for several "libertarian" projects, not only for Elwar. As I wrote I don't consider libertarian communities without a State impossible, but a lot of factors are often not taken into account.
April 25, 2019, 09:32:50 AM
I just think the location should have been given more consideration.
From their website, it seems a lot of thought was put in to the location they chose, for many of the reasons I outlined in my post above. Ocean Builders have recently made a blog post which states that they are keen to stay within the Andaman Sea due to its calm waters and lack of storms and hurricanes. They also state they have received offers from other countries who would be keen for them to set up near their coasts.It very much looks like they are keen to push on despite this setback, so kudos to them. It also looks like they may not have to move very far from their current location to find a new and more welcoming home.
April 25, 2019, 04:23:43 AM
That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State". Even if they only went on shore to buy necessary goods and paid necessary services like medical emergency treatment with their own money, they are using a State's infrastructure, like roads, ports etc.
I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.
I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.
the trouble with that mindset is that somebody has to do something first, even if it's one step in a series of incremental steps. if the Thai government hadn't acted this way, there was apossibility of taking further steps. Your criticism seems to be that Elwar didn't execute every possible detail from the beginning, that's unrealistic for many reasons. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it
Elwar was the first to try. Maybe we could argue that he should have seen this coming, but he deserves alot of respect for at least trying, and it was no insignificant attempt. He spent alot of money & time planning and contructing his seastead, which is more than most people in the seasteading bracket have done
Nobody should dispute the fact that a lot of planning went into the actual project and to build the actual structure. I think "Oceanbuilders" also had a huge contribution in this.
I just think the location should have been given more consideration. Yes, any location will do, IF it is not within the territory of any nation, but it seems as though Thailand is disputing the location of his "house" and they are saying it is within their economic zone
Also, doing this close to Thailand with their "dictatorship" government, might have been a poor choice. Kudos for them for trying this, because most people would not even challenge any government in this way.
April 25, 2019, 03:24:24 AM
That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State". Even if they only went on shore to buy necessary goods and paid necessary services like medical emergency treatment with their own money, they are using a State's infrastructure, like roads, ports etc.
I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.
I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.
the trouble with that mindset is that somebody has to do something first, even if it's one step in a series of incremental steps. if the Thai government hadn't acted this way, there was a possibility of taking further steps. Your criticism seems to be that Elwar didn't execute every possible detail from the beginning, that's unrealistic for many reasons. taking the simplest foundational steps first at least means something actually happened, instead of endless talking about it
Elwar was the first to try. Maybe we could argue that he should have seen this coming, but he deserves alot of respect for at least trying, and it was no insignificant attempt. He spent alot of money & time planning and contructing his seastead, which is more than most people in the seasteading bracket have done
April 24, 2019, 09:04:39 PM
I agree with you. I think seasteading is a noble cause and a very interesting idea, but implementing it on a small scale of two people living in a single small cabin is not feasible.
Yep. Probably it's an experiment they wanted to carry out to try, like a kind of holiday, for at most some months or a few years - hoping that other people could join them. However, I think there are better places to do that than military dictatorships.And I believe even if they succeed[ed] (maybe they try it again, I don't think they really will get killed for that, even in Thailand!) that the subsequent steps, providing a "libertarian ecosystem" for essential services, is much more difficult than the first step they've started (building this "seasted house"). For example, take this Liberarian community in Chile with the name taken out of this famous Ayn Rand novel (
I however disagree with bbc.reporter - I think a Libertarian/Anarchist settlement (like a seastead) may be possible, but there is much work that has to be done for that.
April 24, 2019, 08:57:03 PM
We cannot protect our own sovereignty without a military backing it. Be ready to die fighting for it. This is where the Libertarians do not get it.
In any case, agreed with vit05. I hope he resolves this legal issue and goes back home laughing at the crazy experience.
In any case, agreed with vit05. I hope he resolves this legal issue and goes back home laughing at the crazy experience.
April 24, 2019, 07:12:59 PM
That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State".
I agree with you. I think seasteading is a noble cause and a very interesting idea, but implementing it on a small scale of two people living in a single small cabin is not feasible. Their website states that they used a solar-powered purifier for their water needs, and solar power for the rest of their electricity. It also, however, states that they had a back up diesel generator. The diesel has to come from somewhere, and they are not drilling for it themselves. Their site also made no mention whatsoever of food or farming. If you want to live separate from any country or state then you need to be self-sustainable, and a huge part of that is being able to grow your own food year-round. That's simply not possible in such a small space, meaning they are still depending on a country for the bare necessities, regardless of whether they are living within its borders or not.This has been all over the news of late.I would have to agree also that the idealistic lifestyle is a little floored.... It would be wonderful though to live free from all government jurisdictions but on their small scale certainly not feasible.You really have to admire their courage and ingenuity though. Wouldn't catch me living on that little thing.Hope the government can see some humour in it.
April 24, 2019, 06:33:25 PM
That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State".
I agree with you. I think seasteading is a noble cause and a very interesting idea, but implementing it on a small scale of two people living in a single small cabin is not feasible. Their website states that they used a solar-powered purifier for their water needs, and solar power for the rest of their electricity. It also, however, states that they had a back up diesel generator. The diesel has to come from somewhere, and they are not drilling for it themselves. Their site also made no mention whatsoever of food or farming. If you want to live separate from any country or state then you need to be self-sustainable, and a huge part of that is being able to grow your own food year-round. That's simply not possible in such a small space, meaning they are still depending on a country for the bare necessities, regardless of whether they are living within its borders or not. April 24, 2019, 03:47:10 PM
This reads like a joke article. They built a big metal box in the sea and anchored it. It's similar to what ships are doing. They also filled in some paperwork so the government knew they were planning to live there and now they are hunted down like criminals.
If they stole a purse from an old lady the authorities wouldn't care but try to live in peace on a self made floating device and you're an enemy of the state.
If they stole a purse from an old lady the authorities wouldn't care but try to live in peace on a self made floating device and you're an enemy of the state.
April 24, 2019, 01:55:33 PM
First of all, they have to be close to a somewhere they can buy more supplies - food, toiletries, diesel/gas, etc. They can't just build in the middle of the sea, they've got to be near somewhere where they can easily land a small boat within easy reach of a supermarket.
That doesn't really look that they're really "independent from the State". Even if they only went on shore to buy necessary goods and paid necessary services like medical emergency treatment with their own money, they are using a State's infrastructure, like roads, ports etc.I'm sorry, I think seasteading doesn't have a future if it's not carried out with LOTs of planning, and preferably by a major group of people. Anarchy isn't only about "not paying taxes". It has also to do also with finding alternatives for the services states provide to you.
I hope the best for him, but his plan simply doesn't look sustainable.
April 24, 2019, 09:09:55 AM
Why did they chose Thailand with their strict laws and a total dictatorship for this experiment?
There were probably a number of factors that led them to there. First of all, they have to be close to a somewhere they can buy more supplies - food, toiletries, diesel/gas, etc. They can't just build in the middle of the sea, they've got to be near somewhere where they can easily land a small boat within easy reach of a supermarket. Climate would also have played a big part in selecting a location. They need somewhere with few storms or hurricanes. They need somewhere where the sea is usually relatively calm and waves are generally small. It would also have depended on various local prices of materials and labor to construct these steadings. April 24, 2019, 01:32:58 AM
Why did they chose Thailand with their strict laws and a total dictatorship for this experiment? I would have rather picked a country without the death penalty!
In any way, most countries will have an issue with tax-free homes in their territorial waters and also non-citizens doing this in their country. This was a huge gamble with their lives or a life long sentence in a Thailand jail.
Just imagine what the environmental impact would be if 1000s of people did this in your country.
In any way, most countries will have an issue with tax-free homes in their territorial waters and also non-citizens doing this in their country. This was a huge gamble with their lives or a life long sentence in a Thailand jail.
Just imagine what the environmental impact would be if 1000s of people did this in your country.
April 23, 2019, 05:36:46 PM
I'm reading elsewhere that Elwar claims the seastead is 14 nautical miles offshore and therefore in international waters. Some sources are saying Thai authorities are claiming it is only 12 nautical miles offshore and therefore under their jurisdiction, whereas others are saying they accept it is outwith the 12 mile zone, but anything within the 200 miles economic zone is fair game. Regardless of the legalities of it, this is a real shame and a massive overreaction by Thailand.
Here's hoping they both get out safely. There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.
Here's hoping they both get out safely. There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.
I hope he gets the support of big international organizations and big firms specializing in such disputes. Having a clearer definition of the legality of this type of enterprise could be revolutionary. But unfortunately, without a country offering support, I find it unlikely that it will be able to get representation in the major international bodies.
April 23, 2019, 05:00:27 PM
I'm reading elsewhere that Elwar claims the seastead is 14 nautical miles offshore and therefore in international waters. Some sources are saying Thai authorities are claiming it is only 12 nautical miles offshore and therefore under their jurisdiction, whereas others are saying they accept it is outwith the 12 mile zone, but anything within the 200 miles economic zone is fair game. Regardless of the legalities of it, this is a real shame and a massive overreaction by Thailand.
Here's hoping they both get out safely. There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.
Here's hoping they both get out safely. There is zero chance Thailand tries to execute a US citizen for something like this, though.
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