Topic: 4Grinz Bitcoin Casino Official Thread - page 10. (Read 15193 times)

Another straw man. "Don't we want our site to be fair to our user base?"

Creating a false narrative and asking us to argue it is senseless. The insinuation is baseless. For the record, of course we want our site to be fair. That was the mission statement before building 4Grinz. Our site is not only fair, it's proven fair by real experts and software, including the outdated and untrustworthy Provably Fair systems.  

It seems you've missed our post in this cumbersome thread. We have a system in place. Actually, several systems. 4Grinz is powered by Coingaming.io, which means it is already certified "Provably Fair," and our games, along with eight other online casinos are hosted on a shared platform. 4Grinz and Coingaming.io took that security a step further with GLI and TST testing. It's not that 4Grinz is not utilizing provably fair systems, it's that any tester will tell you, provably fair systems work best with dice, create terrible and false results for slots, and such games should be tested on several levels and then monitored in real-time. That's what they did. That's what we do. Our security is layered, and not just when it comes to slots, and we monitor and flag any unusual activity.  

On top of that, we don't collect player personal information. We offer two-tier login security with Google Authenticator. Player funds are kept in cold storage and don't linger on the site. Jackpot revenues are kept separate from player and casino revenues. Withdrawals are immediate and in full.

On a lighter note, we're always searching for more cool games and we've found another major-brand provider. We love HD cinematic slots and want to focus on the entertainment experience, ensuring extended play and immersive interaction so players can get to know the hundreds of charming and funny characters, like the ones you meet in WhoSpunit, Mr. Vegas, When Night Falls, Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde, and Gypsy Rose to name a few. Every game is different. Each has its own unique quality and story to tell. All must go through regulated testing. All must pass GL Standards, and all will undergo real-time monitoring by gaming experts at 4Grinz.com.

Slots are less about gambling and more about entertainment. Slots are a way to relax and unwind. They provide more than just a gambler's adrenaline rush. They're real games.

That's the future of gaming. That's the future of 4Grinz.com.

This is what I would like to see more of here. People stepping in and proving these non-provably fair bitcoin casinos are scammers. This (I assume) owner of 4grinz just had a public meltdown and showed his/her true colors. I just wish you dudes were doing this in all the non-provably fair casino topics. The thing is when these kind of casinos want you to win you will win big. When they want you to lose? It can go on for MONTHS or until you are homeless. At least with provably fair you know it's bad luck and bad luck only. The trick is to know when to hit & run these corrupt casinos. Though, many have tried and failed.

These non-provably fair bitcoin casinos are the most greediest and corrupt online casinos i have ever seen. Yes, even more scammy then all the other fiat online casinos i have ever witnessed going back 15+ years. They prey on kids and they finally caught on that there are a lot of kids who are naive and lack experience that are using bitcoin. It took these corrupt sleaze balls a good amount of time to hop on the bitcoin train and i'm afraid they will never leave as long as they have a good flow of new users. If they dare post their corrupt casino on bitcoin talk we can at least save some naive people.

^ everything you just posted can still be provably fair by using a nonce value. That way, you can't seek ahead in the number sequence, otherwise the client will know (because their end result was not your result). As for the user picking hi and lo, you could also assign "hi" to black, and "lo" to red. Or, *gasp*, you could let it be at the discretion of the user.

Why are you just insistent on posting relentless garbage? Don't you want your site to be fair to your user base?

There's a great piece by bitZino (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/) posted in reddit nearly two years ago. If Provably Fair was a system that exploited and pressured casinos into utilizing it for other than testing the fairness of dice games and failed then, imagine its inferiority today. We feel the same as this author and believe casinos and casino software should undergo rigorous testing by regulated organizations. They should have to provide tangible results, not theories. We at 4Grinz are well known and well connected in the gaming industry. Our friends and colleagues play on our site because they trust us (and they know where we live). The team at 4Grinz applied successful models to a bitcoin-only site in an effort to introduce cryptocurrencies to others in the industry. So, that's what we did, and we rely on GLI, TST, Coingaming.io, and those testers we know are working with online and brick-and-mortar casinos around the world, because Provably Fair is an assumption of safety and fairness, it applies mostly to dice, not slots, and our players deserve better.

Read bitZino's evaluation of Provably Fair, and you decide. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

Provably Fair is better than anything out there. False.
It is my firm belief that the current implementation of Provably Fair is harmful to players, because it gives players a feeling of security when such security can be easily be compromised without any notification or warning to the player.
We will just release all played hands to show we are fair. This will not work, nor should it appease players. As stated earlier, many of the exploits will still produce Provably Fair data. Any analysis of the hand data can be compromised, because it is generated by the house. Secondly, it distracts the player away from what is really important: is Provably Fair actually provable?
Take for example, roulette. If a house wanted to cheat at roulette - say to produce a string of 15 black - it can do so using one of the exploits. For every switched roll from red to black, the server makes a running count. It can do one of two things at this point: a) cheat another player betting black the same number of times, b) generate fake data and insert reds in equal number to the running count. In any case, it will have to generate fake green plays to maintain the predicted spins. Either way, the plays will offset. There is nothing stopping the house from generating millions of additional "fair" hands to make the probabilities converge to their theoretical, published rates.
Conclusion

These are just a few ways that a house could exploit a player by circumventing the Provably Fair concept. All of the code prior to any exploit is written in a fair and legitimate manner, but is then compromised during the normal course of play using AJAX and HTML partials. None of the initial static files are modified. That's the hidden beauty (if you can call it beauty) in these exploits.
Cryptography is hard. The basic elements of Provably Fair - Mersenne Twister, the Secure Hashing Algorithm (SHA), or any of the pseudorandom number technology - are not compromised. It's the way in which they are structured that is extremely weak. In the words of Bruce Schneier, "And just as it's possible to build a weak structure using strong materials, it's possible to build a weak cryptographic system using strong algorithms and protocols."
The analysis presented here examined a specific implementation of a browser-based "Provably Fair" system. Other implementations of this concept will vary from site to site, and may or may not exhibit similar vulnerabilities.

Yes, the lack of a provable fair system seems to be a barrier in me playing there at this point.   It seems that with all the pressure being put on you to employ one(even having the logic in which one could be created given to you) that it should be a no brainer.   The bitcoin community tends to stray away from the non-provably fair casinos.   Please put a system in place.

Isn't the point of a Forum to listen.
Yes I have 0 posts
I stumbled upon this thread while looking into some details on a new slot promotion by play'n'go which is used at hundreds on online casinos both regular and BTC

Yes I am a slot guy. As someone that has done well in the online gaming world I can tell you that these games both online and in physical casinos generate about 60-70% of the houses money.

I don't like talking trash but as someone who enjoys statistics and gaming found it interesting that of the 10 or so people associated with this thread 5 or more of you all work together and a 50% "player" edge just doesn't seem fair.
Now if you would like to talk about the PF stall method I'm all ears.
Otherwise you and Canton can go back to making printed holiday bitcoin wallets.

For you viewing pleasure.

https://youtu.be/t5SMFPMu6xo

And why should we listen to you? Because you like slots and are a zero post user? Because you like posting accusatory trash?

And no, I'm not going to trust a "provider" when the numbers can be generated by the dice site (or are they already? who knows?) in a more transparent manner. The notion of trusting a system like this is just incredibly stupid.

You guys are going a little far with this no?

As an outsider looking in I would like to point a "probably unfair" team up of associated board members on this particular thread.
Its fascinating to me that
Dooglas
tryphe
EBK1000
webcris
TigerTatas
 
All coincidentally seem to also be working on the clam client together and obviously have strong dice affiliate associations if not tier 2 direct affiliates
As someone who cans how you how to utilize the server stall method to prevent responding to a client seed I think the following should be noted:

For bunch of smart developers you basically suck at converging on your "enemy"

Although dice respectfully founded and created the bitcoin gaming experience as most things it has been surpassed by the real deal vegas pros that have been developing games since Jimmy Hoffa got buried under Jersey Stadium

Disclaimer: I am an affiliate at both "provably fair" and non provably fair casino including 4 grinz, Satoshibet, Nitrogen, Jetwin and other bitcoin sports books.
If they are pushing slots then they can rig the outcome if they so please. If they are using the big providers like Endorphina, Betsoft, Play n Gothen they need to put up about $100k to get going. In the old days any CS major could develop a game (which is why they needed system like PF to show their fairness because REAL GAMES COST REAL MONEY) that the BTC community would analyze the hell out of until gangs of programmer douchbags ganged up on them with some alternate motive in mind. Such as consistently calling out well developed casinos in order to cast a white light on games like just dice. Don't get me wrong Just Dice is cool as is Satoshi as was Seals with Clubs but if you are going totap the $3 trillion a year gaming market you are going to need a bit more than Java script skills. Not a prayer Just a thought. 

The basis of your response isn't completely wrong. I could explain it, but clearly you wouldn't understand it because the answer already exists in the nature of the provably fair system (and has already been explained tenfold by dooglus).

A new seed automatically gives you a sequence of provable numbers, which is apparently impossible from your stance. This would immediately allow any game to be provably fair. PRNGs are a figment of imagination, then? I suppose pigs also fly now, huh?

What?  Dooglus posted a provably fair slots game 4 fucking posts above this one you just made.

Also, your condescending and adolescent tone throughout this whole charade is infuriating.

That sentence, no verb.


I just provided an existence proof.

This is wrong. You are wrong on more than one account and alarmingly ignorant. Good luck with your scammy casino that runs on "providers" with "tested algorithms", whatever that possibly could mean.

Now, now, that's not very professional. "This is wrong," is hardly proof that provably fair systems are applied to slots, and a casino that runs on providers using tested algorithms is the point. Isn't it? Seems you were unable to find the resources necessary to back up your original claim that slots are Provably Fair. Stuff happens. Have a nice day, and good luck finding that provably fair slot casino in the sky.

Fascinating and relevant interview with Bitcoin Gambling and Betting Expert, James Canning.

This is wrong. You are wrong on more than one account and alarmingly ignorant. Good luck with your scammy casino that runs on "providers" with "tested algorithms", whatever that possibly could mean.

I think you just totally missed my point, for I was saying the exact opposite.

There is no fundamental difference between 'dice' and 'slot' games. In both games you somehow pick an outcome and the player wins or loses varying amounts. The problem is how you demonstrate to the player than you picked the outcome you picked because you had to, rather than because you wanted to. THAT is what provable fairness is all about, and it applies equally to all single-player games of chance.


There is a world of difference between an appeal to authority and actual proof.

You are asking us to trust you, and to trust the people who tested your site, and to trust that the version they tested is the version you actually run.

Provably fair sites don't ask you to trust anything. They say "if you want to check whether your game was fair, follow these steps", and provide a list of steps that you can follow to be 100% certain that your game was fair.

Do you understand the difference?


I don't think you said what you meant to say there, but I agree that you are not only misguided, but misinformed when you say that slots games cannot be provably fair.

Check https://bitcoinvideocasino.com/slots for example. It is a provably fair slot game:


It's not a great implementation since it uses a new pair of seeds for every spin and puts too much burden on the player if he wants to verify each roll, but it does work, and serves as a sufficient example to prove your claim wrong.

Dooglus pointed out several times how sha512 could be applied directly to your slot machine predicament. Sadly, this is the poorest reply I've ever read to such a well constructed dissection of a post.

Your original comments were challenged, as requested, and you respond like this?

4Grinz, this was your moment to gain the confidence of a lot of gamblers. You blew it.

+1 Dooglus, goodbye 4Grinz

Sorry,
TigerTatas

You may have overlooked the paragraph that clearly states that 4Grinz is Provably Fair through GL and TST testing, that its providers are tested, and that we continue to measure algorithms daily.
Our point is that Provably Fair is not a system that can be applied in a slot scenario. Anyone that makes such a claim is not only misguided, but misinformed.