Topic: 4Grinz Bitcoin Casino Official Thread - page 11. (Read 15205 times)

While provably fair systems apply to dice scenarios, as has been so painstakingly noted by dooglus, it does not apply to a slots scenarios. Provably Fair was never developed, nor intended for slots. Moreover, we don't host dice games at 4Grinz.com. But thank you for that eloquent and detailed breakdown. We hope that dice players find this useful, however, we doubt they will be searching the 4Grinz.com Official Thread for advice on games we don't actually host on our platform.  

Welcome to the family Chuck!

Lee BTC

Any casino that is not provably fair today is behind the times. Its easy and takes all the burden off of you. Someone comes in and loses and cries fowl, you just point to your provably fair system. I would never play at a casino that doesn't use a provably fair system. Why trust someone with your money when you don't have to?

Registered...Username: Chuck

Good Luck with the Casino and looking forward for the mail.

Slick Design btw, i like it.


Greetings,

Chuck Bartowski

Bitzino did a lot of pioneering work with provable fairness, but their system does have some weaknesses.

The technology has moved on since then, addressing the concerns raised in that reddit post.

Another link about Provably Fair with some great code examples. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

Hello shitaifan2013, thank you for allowing us the opportunity to respond. We take all inquiries seriously, regardless of one’s username. Since you’ve postured yourself as a fellow iGaming expert, and in the best interest of this discussion, we’re going to accept your challenge in disproving the all-encompassing necessity of Provably Fair by putting our cards on the table and letting this forum decide the better hand. In regards to the house edge, we’ve addressed this with you several times. Ours, at 1.5% or less, is far better than that of casinos back in the day offering 15 - 18%, and right on track with newer ones of today. Our revenue is generated by volume, not individual play, which means we have to work hard to make a profit. Thus, our players enjoy larger payouts more often. In the short-term, this doesn’t always work in the house’s favor, but in the long run, it allows us to run a reputable gaming platform and set an industry standard.

The Provably Fair algorithm in laymen’s terms is an application great for calculating the randomness of dice rolls - those little cubes with only six sides. Its hash identifier and algorithm is easy for the player to wrap his/her head around because there are only two dice, or six-squared possibilities, equaling 36. A hash is a long stream of letters and numbers that is a mathematical problem with a solution that is otherwise very difficult to find, but once the solution is presented, it’s easier to reverse the solution to define an actual outcome. The solution to a hash is a piece of data that applies to the roll. With dice, these outcomes happen more often, giving the player more data to compare, thus proving each roll is random and not rigged. When the same system is applied to greater variables, such as card decks or slots, no provable results have been obtained.

Applying the provably fair system to a deck of 52 cards is nearly impossible, and casino card games are something we at 4Grinz know a lot about. In fact, you’re probably not going to find a team in the Bitcoin casino industry with more knowledge of card games that recognizes the importance of random shuffles and deals. We’ve grown through the evolution of software and hardware companies claiming to guarantee the perfect random shuffle going back to Shuffle Master, Delphi 4, and STL random shuffle methods in live and online casino settings.  

For Provably Fair to perform in only single-deck games, it must calculate exactly 52 x 51 x 50 x 49 x 48, and so on ……x 3 x 2 to come up with 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000 possibilities and then attach a hash to outcomes that can be reversed. The question becomes, “How do we or Provably Fair create a hash generator that a player or operator can utilize and apply?” We can't, and neither can Provably Fair. While the way in which a deck is shuffled is paramount, there are much more important considerations, like who is behind the software, who is managing the casino, whether players are able to withdraw in a timely manner, how revenue is being stored (jackpots, casino revenue, and player funds), backend security protecting everyone from hackers and potential viruses, and the use or possible abuse of players’ personal information.  

Flashback to 2008, when three large online poker brands were caught committing fraud. This happened while pro and amateur players were utilizing every possible variation of provably fair software recommended by licensers, created by developers, and sold by a dozen or more commercial providers. In the end, it did nothing to protect players and served as a false flag. While so much focus was being placed on the integrity of a deck, other, more sinister, offenses like viewing hole and river cards were being committed. With today’s technology, such behavior is now easy to identify and there are several companies that offer related software.

A card counter makes calculations based on outcomes. Outcomes are determined by the cards you can see with the deduction of those you can’t see. The randomness of the shuffle is only monitored by Provably Fair, and doesn’t actually ensure the integrity of the deck or decks, but only that the order of the cards differ substantially for each hand. This is great, but how do you attach a hash to so many possible outcomes to provide comparisons establishing fairness? We invite anyone to square and cube the above number to determine randomness in dealing blackjack and poker, and challenge them to provide tangible results. Provably Fair doesn’t claim a fair outcome when applied to one or more decks. Rather, it proves the randomness. While random shuffles are important to online and brick-and-mortar card rooms, what’s happening on the backend is what should concern players. Security has less to do with randomness and more with outcome.

The benefit of a provably fair system is its third-party verification and auditing for cards and dice. Again, the shuffle and roll are important and shouldn’t be discounted, but recently, Provably Fair’s major flaw has been it’s susceptibility to unscrupulous players or competitors who make baseless claims against service operators by implying they cheat. Most players only familiar with the phrase “provably fair” will take such a claim for its word, believing a casino is creating a larger risk, when Provably Fair was never designed for slots or that purpose. While Provably Fair is effective in dice and single-deck blackjack, it’s not an effective tool when applied to multiple decks, shoes, and certainly not slots. Worse yet, the Provably Fair system and its open-source software is responsible for exposing several operators to hacking attempts. This is why Provably Fair is applied separate from our platform and in conjunction with other testing.

If your head hasn’t already exploded from all of this information, we challenge you to take the Provably Fair system a step further by applying the hash algorithm to slots. It’s being attempted, but the outcomes mean nothing. Because the hash will most likely never attach itself to the same outcome produced by (oh, let’s say) 36 lines determined by a wheel with (oh, let’s say) 50 identifiers, times (oh, let’s say) five or more wheels on any given spin, giving you a 0% Provably Fair rate, and merely the appearance of fairness. Finally, we challenge anyone to find a central source behind Provably Fair. Go ahead, Google it.
 
So what is the real solution for players and casino managers hosting more than just dice and blackjack games? Real science, inspections, visual tools, and supervision.

To put all concerns to rest, we’d like to state for the record, 4Grinz does employ Provably Fair, just not directly (for the above security reasons). 4Grinz is powered by CoinGaming.io and scrutinized by Gaming Labs International (GL), and Provably Fair has never been our end-all for establishing fairness - it’s merely an element. We layer our testing to ensure safety, reasonable outcomes, and everyone’s protection from malware and hackers.

Fairness in iGaming and slots has also been established by the big-brand software and product providers like Betsoft, Ezugi, Gamearts, Endorphina, Takisto, and Play-N-Go. Just like IGT solicits trusted developers to provide similar software to brick-and-mortar casinos, our online developers are scrutinized by hundreds of casinos and security experts and pass rigorous testing before each of their games can be licensed.

There are many developers out there, but none as closely monitored as the brands and their products that we offer our players. Coingaming.io provides 4Grinz with additional layers of security, and then 4Grinz security experts ensure all standards are being met. More importantly, our outcomes are compared with all of Coingaming.io’s partner sites and their outcomes daily, and visa versa.

In addition, 4Grinz does the following:
1. Research each and every provider on our site and establish clear lines of communication with immediate access to security reports that flag uncommon outcomes.  
2. Powered by Coingaming, 4Grinz enjoys another layer of management, scrutiny, and access to algorithms that display real-time statistical data 24 hours a day, seven days a week, on demand and at a glance. At anytime, this data can be shared and compared with the software provider with whom we also have direct contact. 4Grinz, Coingaming.io, and the casino game providers are able to review and collect data from each and every play, a series of plays, while comparing several games over short or long periods of time, and then analyze that data to make a determination. Coingaming.io is one of the largest bitcoin gaming platforms having processed a huge sample size of more than 100 million bets (transactions) on its platform. This affords its team the ability to consistently and accurately analyze the expected house edge from the gaming software providers with actual results to ensure the validity of house percentages.
3. Gaming Labs International (GLI) is our preferred testing lab. Why? Because GLI acquired Technical Systems Testing (TST), established in 1993, and its technology - including Provably Fair. We can assure you, GLI, which has owned TST since the online poker meltdown of 2010, is the world's most experienced gaming test labs and internationally recognized testing facilities offering a full range of testing and consulting services to both the iGaming and land-based markets. It doesn’t get any better than that. Finally, when assessing the total value of a service provider, we prefer to talk to a real person.

What does that mean for the player? It means that we know and trust the providers, that the providers are tested, that our standards are tested, and that all of this is monitored in ways like never before. We also communicate with other casinos and providers using the same GL Standard games. This allows us to compare outcomes, address possible concerns, and move forward as a gaming community to guarantee GLI performs at the highest standards.

We invite one to visit an actual GLI facility before coming forth as an expert on iGaming fairness and security. Their labs are strategically positioned around the world, with bases in London, Macau, Manila, Netherlands, Vancouver, and Italy. Each lab works closely with industry operators, software suppliers, and manufacturers. Its jurisdictional regulators verify compliance, ensuring GLI upholds superior technical and new world industry standards. Their website is comprehensive and very educational for one wishing to stay up with iGaming security, safety, and fairness issues.

Best part, they are real people.

This humble author and gaming expert has witnessed several developers and testers challenge each other mentally and physically over the years, with a few of those challenges resulting in more than one concussion. Do we discourage such behavior? No. We just get better insurance, because developers and testers challenging each other at escalated levels is exactly what we want for the protection of our company and our players.

See you at the games!

We are 4Grinz.com

so it's NOT provably fair. why not guys? 

bitcoin offers you such awesome ways of making your casino worthwhile for players. for 35 years of experience combined this is quite poor.

HI Altcoin4life !

So yeah it's below 2% it does range between 1% and 2% staying for the most part under 1.5% depending on the game, for a complete breakdown by game you can go here http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/ and as far as provably fair goes there are providers are internationally recognized for using best practice programs to regulate fair play like GLI standards under which we abide.

Less than 2 but greater than? There are a few sites just like this one.  I missed the provably fair verification too do u have a link?

Any plans to accept other cryptos in the future? CLAMS would be a good one.

We see you! Check your mail!

Good luck, nice deposit bonuses.   They site looks nice.  I will try it later today when I have some free time and report back.   I like the fact that your design isn't the same as a lot of casinos that have popped up lately.

i new register very fast load site
username:joclixal

I will try. see you

Well Thank you so much Darknessdr

You are welcome to stick around.

Congratulations on a beautiful site 

You are right i missed that, we have a low edge less than 2%.

thanks for your fast repsone.

but since you didn't really answer the question of tsoPANos, what's your house edge?