$5000 per coin will never happen if PoW mining is allowed to continue - page 8.

kokojie

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 01:06:31 PM

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 01:01:17 PM

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:42:17 PM

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A huge part of Bitcoin's success is thanks to PoW.

OP can't see the forest for the trees.

OP should fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and let it compete with Bitcoin. Someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and release it so we can put these endless debates to bed.

No, Bitcoin's success is thanks to its early start, to Satoshi's innovation and to the efforts of the community. PoW had very little to do with it. If Bitcoin had used PoS from the start, it would probably be more successful, and we might already be seeing $5000 per coin today.

We could both make unsubstantiated claims all day long. Just fork the code and let them compete. I fully support forking Bitcoin to PoX.

I wouldn't support that, why would I cut off my leg to remove a leech from my leg, your proposal is childish and laughable.

What are you proposing if it isn't a fork?

I'm proposing an official fork approved and distributed by Gavin Andressen, not a 3rd party fork.

Official? Call it whatever you want, you can't force me to installed the forked software. Thus, they will compete. I don't particularly care who approves and distributes it!

Sure, no one can force you, but then you will lose value on all your Bitcoin. Any sane user will choose the client and network distributed by Gavin Andressen, as long as he's the leader developer for Bitcoin.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 01:05:53 PM

Ok, try another analogy then, if you don't like Obama as President, do you try to vote him out? or do you pack up your family, quit your job and permanently move out of the US?

I did the former actually and moved out of the US, as anyone with a little historical background would soon realize that voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 01:08:19 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:59:48 PM

What evidence, you posted something that is similarly made up, just like your own. I want to see something posted by the dev team, saying there will be a portion extra paid to the developers within the merger proposal.

You are in serious denial buddy. I gave you a post created by delegates and stickied by the head moderators.

this is another example where I am privy to more information about Bitshares than you. If you don't trust that post than simply read these posts from bytemaster

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=5

Don't you trust that source at least?

Yes, but the part you quoted, is a speculation, therefore it's made up, just like your speculation. If you going to convince anyone, you'll need to post something written by the dev team.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:59:48 PM

What evidence, you posted something that is similarly made up, just like your own. I want to see something posted by the dev team, saying there will be a portion extra paid to the developers within the merger proposal.

You are in serious denial buddy. I gave you a post created by delegates and stickied by the head moderators.

this is another example where I am privy to more information about Bitshares than you. If you don't trust that post than simply read these posts from bytemaster

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=5

Don't you trust that source at least?

kokojie

legendary

Activity: 1806

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 01:01:17 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:42:17 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

A huge part of Bitcoin's success is thanks to PoW.

OP can't see the forest for the trees.

OP should fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and let it compete with Bitcoin. Someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and release it so we can put these endless debates to bed.

No, Bitcoin's success is thanks to its early start, to Satoshi's innovation and to the efforts of the community. PoW had very little to do with it. If Bitcoin had used PoS from the start, it would probably be more successful, and we might already be seeing $5000 per coin today.

We could both make unsubstantiated claims all day long. Just fork the code and let them compete. I fully support forking Bitcoin to PoX.

I wouldn't support that, why would I cut off my leg to remove a leech from my leg, your proposal is childish and laughable.

What are you proposing if it isn't a fork?

I'm proposing an official fork approved and distributed by Gavin Andressen, not a 3rd party fork.

kokojie

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Activity: 1806

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 01:02:31 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:57:54 PM

Why would I do that? if I have a leech sucking my blood on my leg, do I cut off my leg? or do I kill/remove the leech from my leg? I guess by your logic, you should cut off your leg to remove a leech.

Poor Analogy. The "Leech" is the PoW wasteful mining. I am suggesting you remove the leech and take your beautiful leg and cloth it with some shiny new DPoS Bitcoin 2.0 goodness.

Or did you buy all your coins above 400 and need to wait as not to harm your investments?

Ok, try another analogy then, if you don't like Obama as President, do you try to vote him out? or do you pack up your family, quit your job and permanently move out of the US?

DumbFruit

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Quote from: TonyT on October 23, 2014, 01:00:42 PM

But then, even if you accept that PoW is necessary, the OP's larger point is still very true: BTC is an unstable system, due to high mining costs, that requires a constant influx of new money or equivalently, fees to be paid by existing users, in order to keep the system going. It's an ongoing tax on users. As such, Bitcoin is unstable and not necessarily an improvement over PayPal (except for the anonymity, which IMO is going away within the next five to ten years). I see in the end Bitcoin becoming like PayPal, nothing special.

Mining costs don't make Bitcoin unstable anymore than paying construction companies makes buildings unstable.

kokojie

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Quote from: redsn0w on October 23, 2014, 01:01:28 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:57:54 PM

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:47:00 PM

Of course it's a problem, I'm being charged 10% tax on my Bitcoin holding, for something that is easily replaceable and useless.

Please do yourself a favor and let your actions match your convictions. Sell us your bitcoins and invest in Bitshares completely since you have so much faith in DPoS and so little trust in PoW. Why don't you invest in BTSX now before the big marketing push that is coming in a couple months! If you are smart you can even take those profits and re-buy into BTC right before the halfing to profit again and than sell those profits for BTSX.

The fact that you don't sell your bitcoins tells the whole story.

Why would I do that? if I have a leech sucking my blood on my leg, do I cut off my leg? or do I kill/remove the leech from my leg? I guess by your logic, you should cut off your leg to remove a leech.

Can you allowe me to say you one thing ? If you don't like the PoW system -btc :: you can always leave ( or you can try to contact one of the btc devs Wink

).

That's same as cutting off a leg to remove a leech from leg. Any sane person would not do that, but instead they will make an effort to remove the leech.

inBitweTrust

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Activity: 658

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:57:54 PM

Why would I do that? if I have a leech sucking my blood on my leg, do I cut off my leg? or do I kill/remove the leech from my leg? I guess by your logic, you should cut off your leg to remove a leech.

Poor Analogy. The "Leech" is the PoW wasteful mining. I am suggesting you remove the leech and take your beautiful leg and cloth it with some shiny new DPoS Bitcoin 2.0 goodness.

Or did you buy all your coins above 400 and need to wait as not to harm your investments?

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:57:54 PM

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:47:00 PM

Of course it's a problem, I'm being charged 10% tax on my Bitcoin holding, for something that is easily replaceable and useless.

Please do yourself a favor and let your actions match your convictions. Sell us your bitcoins and invest in Bitshares completely since you have so much faith in DPoS and so little trust in PoW. Why don't you invest in BTSX now before the big marketing push that is coming in a couple months! If you are smart you can even take those profits and re-buy into BTC right before the halfing to profit again and than sell those profits for BTSX.

The fact that you don't sell your bitcoins tells the whole story.

Why would I do that? if I have a leech sucking my blood on my leg, do I cut off my leg? or do I kill/remove the leech from my leg? I guess by your logic, you should cut off your leg to remove a leech.

Can you allowe me to say you one thing ? If you don't like the PoW system -btc :: you can always leave ( or you can try to contact one of the btc devs Wink

).

kokojie

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1003

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:42:17 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

A huge part of Bitcoin's success is thanks to PoW.

OP can't see the forest for the trees.

OP should fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and let it compete with Bitcoin. Someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and release it so we can put these endless debates to bed.

No, Bitcoin's success is thanks to its early start, to Satoshi's innovation and to the efforts of the community. PoW had very little to do with it. If Bitcoin had used PoS from the start, it would probably be more successful, and we might already be seeing $5000 per coin today.

We could both make unsubstantiated claims all day long. Just fork the code and let them compete. I fully support forking Bitcoin to PoX.

I wouldn't support that, why would I cut off my leg to remove a leech from my leg, your proposal is childish and laughable.

TonyT

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:47:00 PM

Of course it's a problem, I'm being charged 10% tax on my Bitcoin holding, for something that is easily replaceable and useless.

Please do yourself a favor and let your actions match your convictions. Sell us your bitcoins and invest in Bitshares completely since you have so much faith in DPoS and so little trust in PoW. Why don't you invest in BTSX now before the big marketing push that is coming in a couple months! If you are smart you can even take those profits and re-buy into BTC right before the halfing to profit again and than sell those profits for BTSX.

The fact that you don't sell your bitcoins tells the whole story.

I read the white paper referenced in this thread on why PoW is needed, and while I don't know enough about this topic to say this whitepaper is the last word, it seems plausible.

But then, even if you accept that PoW is necessary, the OP's larger point is still very true: BTC is an unstable system, due to high mining costs, that requires a constant influx of new money or equivalently, fees to be paid by existing users, in order to keep the system going. It's an ongoing tax on users. As such, Bitcoin is unstable and not necessarily an improvement over PayPal (except for the anonymity, which IMO is going away within the next five to ten years). I see in the end Bitcoin becoming like PayPal, nothing special.

kokojie

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1003

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:56:52 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:50:55 PM

Why would I address something you made up? there is no dilution to pay the salaries of developers, it's a merger of multiple eco-systems into one. Maybe you could provide me a non-existent link to back up your claim, like the last time you made up something from your imagination? I know you have a very vivid imagination. Do you need me to post our PMs to show your non-existent claims?

You must be so busy typing out propaganda that you missed the fact that I already did provide the evidence:

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:42:27 PM

It is interesting to study Bitshares as a DPoS test case example where a social 51% attack is stealing funds from the minority dissenters:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10214.0

Reasons delegates mostly approve the merger:

1) Conflict between BTSX and VOTE. ( One developer was able to leverage his time creating a competing DAC betraying what investors paid him to focus on. This is than used to motivate stakeholders and other delegates into accepting a dilution in hopes of not introducing competition. )

2) Complexity. Invictus created a clusterfuck with multiple tokens PTS/AGS/BTSX/ and multiple DACs. The merger is a hope to clean up this confusion

3) Need for capital infusion. Invictus and developers are blowing through their IPO cash and will soon run out. Additionally, they realize they are so far behind and competition is so fierce they need a ton of capital to not get squashed with a big marketing campaign

What evidence, you posted something that is similarly made up, just like your own. I want to see something posted by the dev team, saying there will be a portion extra paid to the developers within the merger proposal.

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

Oh nooooo, not this again Grin

kokojie

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Activity: 1806

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:47:00 PM

Of course it's a problem, I'm being charged 10% tax on my Bitcoin holding, for something that is easily replaceable and useless.

Please do yourself a favor and let your actions match your convictions. Sell us your bitcoins and invest in Bitshares completely since you have so much faith in DPoS and so little trust in PoW. Why don't you invest in BTSX now before the big marketing push that is coming in a couple months! If you are smart you can even take those profits and re-buy into BTC right before the halfing to profit again and than sell those profits for BTSX.

The fact that you don't sell your bitcoins tells the whole story.

Why would I do that? if I have a leech sucking my blood on my leg, do I cut off my leg? or do I kill/remove the leech from my leg? I guess by your logic, you should cut off your leg to remove a leech.

inBitweTrust

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 501

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:50:55 PM

Why would I address something you made up? there is no dilution to pay the salaries of developers, it's a merger of multiple eco-systems into one. Maybe you could provide me a non-existent link to back up your claim, like the last time you made up something from your imagination? I know you have a very vivid imagination. Do you need me to post our PMs to show your non-existent claims?

You must be so busy typing out propaganda that you missed the fact that I already did provide the evidence:

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:42:27 PM

It is interesting to study Bitshares as a DPoS test case example where a social 51% attack is stealing funds from the minority dissenters:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10214.0

Reasons delegates mostly approve the merger:

1) Conflict between BTSX and VOTE. ( One developer was able to leverage his time creating a competing DAC betraying what investors paid him to focus on. This is than used to motivate stakeholders and other delegates into accepting a dilution in hopes of not introducing competition. )

2) Complexity. Invictus created a clusterfuck with multiple tokens PTS/AGS/BTSX/ and multiple DACs. The merger is a hope to clean up this confusion

3) Need for capital infusion. Invictus and developers are blowing through their IPO cash and will soon run out. Additionally, they realize they are so far behind and competition is so fierce they need a ton of capital to not get squashed with a big marketing campaign

inBitweTrust

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 501

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:47:00 PM

Of course it's a problem, I'm being charged 10% tax on my Bitcoin holding, for something that is easily replaceable and useless.

Please do yourself a favor and let your actions match your convictions. Sell us your bitcoins and invest in Bitshares completely since you have so much faith in DPoS and so little trust in PoW. Why don't you invest in BTSX now before the big marketing push that is coming in a couple months! If you are smart you can even take those profits and re-buy into BTC right before the halfing to profit again and than sell those profits for BTSX.

The fact that you don't sell your bitcoins tells the whole story.

kokojie

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1003

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:49:22 PM

Quote from: DumbFruit on October 23, 2014, 12:47:51 PM

This would be news to a lot of people. Could you explain how PoS has dealt with the Nothing-at-Stake problem?

They ignore it and claim it doesn't exist.

Better than ignoring an existing and proven problem, that is PoW 51% attack. Many altcoin has been attacked to death with it.

kokojie

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1003

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:48:41 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:37:41 PM

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 23, 2014, 12:35:33 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:30:06 PM

Btw, bitshare users also overwhelmingly approved the merge, why are you saying they aren't? there's a vote thread in bitshares forum, go read it.

Where did I make this claim? I am agreeing with you that a majority approve and a minority disapprove. That is the problem. Democracy is the first 51% attack! The minority investors who disagree are being fleeced.

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 12:30:06 PM

You were saying PoS system can change the cap, PoW system can't. I'm just proving the PoW system can also change the cap, just as easily.

Assertion, with no evidence supporting. There are differences to Bitcoin and Bitshares that make changing the 21 million dollar limit far less likely, if not impossible. Can you think of them?

Well, I am Bitcoin stakeholder, and I disagree with the blocksize hard fork. Am I being fleeced? Don't be ridiculous.

Way to sidestep the discussion and not address the questions honestly. What does the blocksize hardfork being proposal have anything to do with direct dilution for capital infusion to pay the salaries of developers?

Why would I address something you made up? there is no dilution to pay the salaries of developers, it's a merger of multiple eco-systems into one. Maybe you could provide me a non-existent link to back up your claim, like the last time you made up something from your imagination? I know you have a very vivid imagination. Do you need me to post our PMs to show your non-existent claims?

inBitweTrust

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 501

Quote from: DumbFruit on October 23, 2014, 12:47:51 PM

This would be news to a lot of people. Could you explain how PoS has dealt with the Nothing-at-Stake problem?

They ignore it and claim it doesn't exist.

Topic: $5000 per coin will never happen if PoW mining is allowed to continue - page 8. (Read 10208 times)