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Topic: $5000 per coin will never happen if PoW mining is allowed to continue - page 9. (Read 10107 times)

legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
snip

cryptocurrency can't use the bank model for distributed consensus. But both PoW and PoS can be used for consensus, with just one difference, Bitcoin PoW spends $500 million USD per year to do it, and PoS won't.

This would be news to a lot of people. Could you explain how PoS has dealt with the Nothing-at-Stake problem?

How does PoS deal with a problem that doesn't exist? Nothing-at Stake is fictional, or maybe you could go ahead and show us such attack, I'll be watching.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
Btw, bitshare users also overwhelmingly approved the merge, why are you saying they aren't? there's a vote thread in bitshares forum, go read it.

Where did I make this claim? I am agreeing with you that a majority approve and a minority disapprove. That is the problem. Democracy is the first 51% attack! The minority investors who disagree are being fleeced.


You were saying PoS system can change the cap, PoW system can't. I'm just proving the PoW system can also change the cap, just as easily.

Assertion, with no evidence supporting. There are differences to Bitcoin and Bitshares that make changing the 21 million dollar limit far less likely, if not impossible. Can you think of them?


Well, I am Bitcoin stakeholder, and I disagree with the blocksize hard fork. Am I being fleeced? Don't be ridiculous.


Way to sidestep the discussion and not address the questions honestly. What does the blocksize hardfork being proposal have anything to do with direct dilution for capital infusion to pay the salaries of developers?
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 263
snip

cryptocurrency can't use the bank model for distributed consensus. But both PoW and PoS can be used for consensus, with just one difference, Bitcoin PoW spends $500 million USD per year to do it, and PoS won't.

This would be news to a lot of people. Could you explain how PoS has dealt with the Nothing-at-Stake problem?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

A huge part of the utility of Bitcoin is that it attains Distributed Consensus among hostile parties. This Distributed Consensus has only been successfully achieved with the use of Proof of Work. All Proof of Stake coins to date must be closely monitored and maintained by it's developers or they fall apart.

Without Proof of Work, and therefore Distributed Consensus, Bitcoin has no feature that makes it competitive among existing currencies.

Nope, just the contrary, PoW systems are proven to be easily attacked. PoS systems are proven to be very difficult to attack, in fact zero PoS system has been successfully 51% attacked so far.

I could write a program that could never be successfully attacked. In fact this is done all the time for banking institutions. If it fails you just roll it back and reimburse any trouble it caused. Have you had any problems with your USD bank account being hacked? I haven't.

What have we proven exactly? That you don't even need PoS or PoW to have an excellent cryptocurrency?  Roll Eyes

cryptocurrency can't use the bank model for distributed consensus. But both PoW and PoS can be used for consensus, with just one difference, Bitcoin PoW spends $500 million USD per year to do it, and PoS won't.


But for you is it a real problem these 500 million usd /year ?

Of course it's a problem, I'm being charged 10% tax on my Bitcoin holding, for something that is easily replaceable and useless.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
A huge part of Bitcoin's success is thanks to PoW.

OP can't see the forest for the trees.

OP should fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and let it compete with Bitcoin. Someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and release it so we can put these endless debates to bed.


+1. Couldn't be said better.

OP has made it clear that he's a big fan of DPoS, BTSX. The competition is already there, just let the free market decide which one is better.

I'm a bigger fan of Bitcoin, minus the PoW mining. I hold 10X more in value in Bitcoin than Bitshares.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

A huge part of the utility of Bitcoin is that it attains Distributed Consensus among hostile parties. This Distributed Consensus has only been successfully achieved with the use of Proof of Work. All Proof of Stake coins to date must be closely monitored and maintained by it's developers or they fall apart.

Without Proof of Work, and therefore Distributed Consensus, Bitcoin has no feature that makes it competitive among existing currencies.

Nope, just the contrary, PoW systems are proven to be easily attacked. PoS systems are proven to be very difficult to attack, in fact zero PoS system has been successfully 51% attacked so far.

I could write a program that could never be successfully attacked. In fact this is done all the time for banking institutions. If it fails you just roll it back and reimburse any trouble it caused. Have you had any problems with your USD bank account being hacked? I haven't.

What have we proven exactly? That you don't even need PoS or PoW to have an excellent cryptocurrency?  Roll Eyes

cryptocurrency can't use the bank model for distributed consensus. But both PoW and PoS can be used for consensus, with just one difference, Bitcoin PoW spends $500 million USD per year to do it, and PoS won't.


But for you is it a real problem these 500 million usd /year ?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

A huge part of the utility of Bitcoin is that it attains Distributed Consensus among hostile parties. This Distributed Consensus has only been successfully achieved with the use of Proof of Work. All Proof of Stake coins to date must be closely monitored and maintained by it's developers or they fall apart.

Without Proof of Work, and therefore Distributed Consensus, Bitcoin has no feature that makes it competitive among existing currencies.

Nope, just the contrary, PoW systems are proven to be easily attacked. PoS systems are proven to be very difficult to attack, in fact zero PoS system has been successfully 51% attacked so far.

I could write a program that could never be successfully attacked. In fact this is done all the time for banking institutions. If it fails you just roll it back and reimburse any trouble it caused. Have you had any problems with your USD bank account being hacked? I haven't.

What have we proven exactly? That you don't even need PoS or PoW to have an excellent cryptocurrency?  Roll Eyes

cryptocurrency can't use the bank model for distributed consensus. But both PoW and PoS can be used for consensus, with just one difference, Bitcoin PoW spends $500 million USD per year to do it, and PoS won't.
legendary
Activity: 1441
Merit: 1000
Live and enjoy experiments
A huge part of Bitcoin's success is thanks to PoW.

OP can't see the forest for the trees.

OP should fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and let it compete with Bitcoin. Someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and release it so we can put these endless debates to bed.


+1. Couldn't be said better.

OP has made it clear that he's a big fan of DPoS, BTSX. The competition is already there, just let the free market decide which one is better.
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 263
Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

A huge part of the utility of Bitcoin is that it attains Distributed Consensus among hostile parties. This Distributed Consensus has only been successfully achieved with the use of Proof of Work. All Proof of Stake coins to date must be closely monitored and maintained by it's developers or they fall apart.

Without Proof of Work, and therefore Distributed Consensus, Bitcoin has no feature that makes it competitive among existing currencies.

Nope, just the contrary, PoW systems are proven to be easily attacked. PoS systems are proven to be very difficult to attack, in fact zero PoS system has been successfully 51% attacked so far.

I could write a program that could never be successfully attacked. In fact this is done all the time for banking institutions. If it fails you just roll it back and reimburse any trouble it caused. Have you had any problems with your USD bank account being hacked? I haven't.

What have we proven exactly? That you don't even need PoS or PoW to have an excellent cryptocurrency?  Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
It is interesting to study Bitshares as a DPoS test case example where a social 51% attack is stealing funds from the minority dissenters:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10214.0

Reasons delegates mostly approve the merger:

1) Conflict between BTSX and VOTE. ( One developer was able to leverage his time creating a competing DAC betraying what investors paid him to focus on. This is than used to motivate stakeholders and other delegates into accepting a dilution in hopes of not introducing competition. )

2) Complexity. Invictus created a clusterfuck with multiple tokens PTS/AGS/BTSX/ and multiple DACs. The merger is a hope to clean up this confusion

3) Need for capital infusion.  Invictus and developers are blowing through their IPO cash and will soon run out. Additionally, they realize they are so far behind and competition is so fierce they need a ton of capital to not get squashed with a big marketing campaign
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
A huge part of Bitcoin's success is thanks to PoW.

OP can't see the forest for the trees.

OP should fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and let it compete with Bitcoin. Someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to proof-of-whatever and release it so we can put these endless debates to bed.



No, Bitcoin's success is thanks to its early start, to Satoshi's innovation and to the efforts of the community. PoW had very little to do with it. If Bitcoin had used PoS from the start, it would probably be more successful, and we might already be seeing $5000 per coin today.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

A huge part of the utility of Bitcoin is that it attains Distributed Consensus among hostile parties. This Distributed Consensus has only been successfully achieved with the use of Proof of Work. All Proof of Stake coins to date must be closely monitored and maintained by it's developers or they fall apart.

Without Proof of Work, and therefore Distributed Consensus, Bitcoin has no feature that makes it competitive among existing currencies.

Nope, just the contrary, PoW systems are proven to be easily attacked. PoS systems are proven to be very difficult to attack, in fact zero PoS system has been successfully 51% attacked so far.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
Btw, bitshare users also overwhelmingly approved the merge, why are you saying they aren't? there's a vote thread in bitshares forum, go read it.

Where did I make this claim? I am agreeing with you that a majority approve and a minority disapprove. That is the problem. Democracy is the first 51% attack! The minority investors who disagree are being fleeced.


You were saying PoS system can change the cap, PoW system can't. I'm just proving the PoW system can also change the cap, just as easily.

Assertion, with no evidence supporting. There are differences to Bitcoin and Bitshares that make changing the 21 million dollar limit far less likely, if not impossible. Can you think of them?


Well, I am Bitcoin stakeholder, and I disagree with the blocksize hard fork. Am I being fleeced? Don't be ridiculous.
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 263
Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

A huge part of the utility of Bitcoin is that it attains Distributed Consensus among hostile parties. This Distributed Consensus has only been successfully achieved with the use of Proof of Work. All Proof of Stake coins to date must be closely monitored and maintained by it's developers or they fall apart.

Without Proof of Work, and therefore Distributed Consensus, Bitcoin has no feature that makes it competitive among existing currencies.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
Btw, bitshare users also overwhelmingly approved the merge, why are you saying they aren't? there's a vote thread in bitshares forum, go read it.

Where did I make this claim? I am agreeing with you that a majority approve and a minority disapprove. That is the problem. Democracy is the first 51% attack! The minority investors who disagree are being fleeced.


You were saying PoS system can change the cap, PoW system can't. I'm just proving the PoW system can also change the cap, just as easily.

Assertion, with no evidence supporting. There are differences to Bitcoin and Bitshares that make changing the 21 million dollar limit far less likely, if not impossible. Can you think of them?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
Don't kid yourself, the users, since they are overwhelmingly in favor of the change, will accept the cap raise. The miners will do nothing and also accept the cap raise, because the miners will usually do whatever the users are in favor of. Also, since it's actually beneficial to the miners to raise the cap, why would they oppose it. So there, your Bitcoin cap raise, done!

So you are suggesting the users are incentivized to lower the value of their savings and damage the credibility of one of the foundational principles of bitcoin that is considered a Prohibited change (Requiring unanimous consent where even 1 user objection will block the switch) ?
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes#Require_unanimous_consent

Lets lay the cards out on the table.

Why are many of the delegates within Bitshares motivated to merge but not all the users?
How would this change be much more difficult to accomplish with Bitcoin than Bitshares?

I'm not discussing the reason why the user would approve the cap raise in Bitcoin, the assumption is the user already overwhelmingly approved the change. ok?

You were saying PoS system can change the cap, PoW system can't. I'm just proving the PoW system can also change the cap, just as easily.

Btw, bitshare users also overwhelmingly approved the merge, why are you saying they aren't? there's a vote thread in bitshares forum, go read it.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
Don't kid yourself, the users, since they are overwhelmingly in favor of the change, will accept the cap raise. The miners will do nothing and also accept the cap raise, because the miners will usually do whatever the users are in favor of. Also, since it's actually beneficial to the miners to raise the cap, why would they oppose it. So there, your Bitcoin cap raise, done!

So you are suggesting the users are incentivized to lower the value of their savings and damage the credibility of one of the foundational principles of bitcoin that is considered a Prohibited change (Requiring unanimous consent where even 1 user objection will block the switch) ?
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes#Require_unanimous_consent

Lets lay the cards out on the table.

Why are many of the delegates within Bitshares motivated to merge and inflate the monetary supply but not all the users?

How would this change be much more difficult to accomplish with Bitcoin than Bitshares?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
Would people stop saying that somehow PoW imputes value into the coin because of it's costs? That reflects about 12th century economic thinking and is embarrassing to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

Not only that, the miner shills are insulting everyone else, by claiming their useless PoW mining is the sole reason Bitcoin has any value.

So I guess Satoshi Nakamoto's work had no value, all the Bitcoin developer's work had no value, all the people that built infrastructure, ran full nodes etc... had no value. It really infuriates me.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
Would people stop saying that somehow PoW imputes value into the coin because of it's costs? That reflects about 12th century economic thinking and is embarrassing to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

I've told PoW = mining , asic , cost of electricity, etc....  And I also told :



This is  only my personal opinion , the  actual value/price of bitcoin is correlated to the PoW system Wink That's sure .
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 263
Would people stop saying that somehow PoW imputes value into the coin because of it's costs? That reflects about 13th century economic thinking and is embarrassing to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

Edit: 13th century
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