324000 per day is the revenue what about costs, how many people are sharing it?
suppose 1000 people than 324$ per day revenue is not huge
Topic: $504000 per day - page 2. (Read 16693 times)
One thing to bear in mind perhaps is that in the long run the block reward goes to zero and miners only receive income from transaction fees. The block rewards they receive now can be seen as a means to bootstrap the entire system by providing incentive to develop the infrastructure.
That is exactly what happened. The network is bootstrapped. Satoshi was a genius. While the block reward could be phased down faster then Satoshi's plan and bitcoin would still survive, Satoshi's original plan is the plan that will go forward (THANK YOU!).
Just to give us something to compare to, I looked up the financial statement of Visa:
If I am reading it right, in 2012 they had expenses of 2.47 billion dollars, revenue of 10.42 billion dollars, leaving 7.95 billion dollars profits.
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/v/financials
The 118 million per year to miners seems like a lot for a network so much smaller than Visa? I would be surprised if bitcoin was 1% as big as the Visa network, anybody know a good way to measure it?
If I am reading it right, in 2012 they had expenses of 2.47 billion dollars, revenue of 10.42 billion dollars, leaving 7.95 billion dollars profits.
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/v/financials
The 118 million per year to miners seems like a lot for a network so much smaller than Visa? I would be surprised if bitcoin was 1% as big as the Visa network, anybody know a good way to measure it?
There can't be a accurate comparison until the transaction fees are the primary source of income for the miners. At the moment all income is skewed because of the mining reward being mostly about the Bitcoin release still. Work out how much is coming in per day/year from the transaction fee and then compare to VISA.
One thing to bear in mind perhaps is that in the long run the block reward goes to zero and miners only receive income from transaction fees. The block rewards they receive now can be seen as a means to bootstrap the entire system by providing incentive to develop the infrastructure.
Come on, FED print $40 Billion per month without using any electricity and many people even thank them for doing that
Ok... complain to the central authority that regulates bitcoin.
Or buy an ASIC rig and enjoy
Believe me this is a lot more fairer than the fiat system, where only a small number of select institutions (banks) can 'mine' (i.e. lend the money into existence for interest). You can be the bank for just 75BTC (from Avalon).
Or buy an ASIC rig and enjoy
Believe me this is a lot more fairer than the fiat system, where only a small number of select institutions (banks) can 'mine' (i.e. lend the money into existence for interest). You can be the bank for just 75BTC (from Avalon).
My thoughts:
1. Maybe the usd is worth less than we think it is.
2. As FreeMoney said, it is also a distribution method, and all we are really paying is about five cents per transaction (which I imagine will be revised downward soon).
3. Perhaps a good metric to determine if BTC is overvalued is price divided by total BTC exchanged per day.
4. Many people (like me) run a node without mining and without compensation, for the good of the network.
5. We are not in any sort of steady-state equilibrium, and temporary distortions are to be expected.
1. Maybe the usd is worth less than we think it is.
2. As FreeMoney said, it is also a distribution method, and all we are really paying is about five cents per transaction (which I imagine will be revised downward soon).
3. Perhaps a good metric to determine if BTC is overvalued is price divided by total BTC exchanged per day.
4. Many people (like me) run a node without mining and without compensation, for the good of the network.
5. We are not in any sort of steady-state equilibrium, and temporary distortions are to be expected.
Yep, this ^^^
People need to start thinking in terms of BTC not US$ ... it is messing with your minds.
Basically, right now the Bitcoin network is producing 3600 btc per day to secure 10.9 million btc ... leave any other flexible, fake measures of value out of the equations and it makes sense.
Last year it was producing 7200 btc to secure up to 10 million btc.
In 4 years time it will be producing 1800 btc per day to secure 15 million btc.
It is an easily described function of time of how many btc the network will be producing to protect the currently existing stock of btc, you could plot it if you like. It has been factored in that the network will need more btc produced to support it earlier in the development phase and less later on. The miners just happen to be the protectors and primary beneficiaries of the coin production so it is easy to conflate those separate functions when trying to decide if the system is "fair".
And it is not like the miners are getting paid $324k per day. That would be like saying that a new tech company was paying a million dollars a month to their workers when they are really only paying reasonable salaries along with stock options. Miners are basically being paid stock options. The money traded on the exchanges makes up a fraction of the Bitcoin economy. If everyone were to try to sell their Bitcoins today, we would see nowhere close to $1 billion shelled out.
Bitcoin is currently in inflationary mode.
The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is around 17%, far beyond what the dollar's inflation is.
And yet it is attacked for its "deflation".
Keynesians should be loving Bitcoin right now.
If nobody new were buying bitcoins, you would be losing 17% of your wealth by keeping your funds in bitcoins.
But new people are buying...at a rate faster than inflation.
The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is around 17%, far beyond what the dollar's inflation is.
And yet it is attacked for its "deflation".
Keynesians should be loving Bitcoin right now.
If nobody new were buying bitcoins, you would be losing 17% of your wealth by keeping your funds in bitcoins.
But new people are buying...at a rate faster than inflation.
Last I checked we were down to about 11% inflation.
Essentially the $324000 going to the miners is how much we are inflating every day.
You are probably right. I just took an old number I found when the reward was 50 and halved it.
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Bitcoin is currently in inflationary mode.
The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is around 17%, far beyond what the dollar's inflation is.
And yet it is attacked for its "deflation".
Keynesians should be loving Bitcoin right now.
If nobody new were buying bitcoins, you would be losing 17% of your wealth by keeping your funds in bitcoins.
But new people are buying...at a rate faster than inflation.
The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is around 17%, far beyond what the dollar's inflation is.
And yet it is attacked for its "deflation".
Keynesians should be loving Bitcoin right now.
If nobody new were buying bitcoins, you would be losing 17% of your wealth by keeping your funds in bitcoins.
But new people are buying...at a rate faster than inflation.
Last I checked we were down to about 11% inflation.
Essentially the $324000 going to the miners is how much we are inflating every day.
My thoughts:
1. Maybe the usd is worth less than we think it is.
2. As FreeMoney said, it is also a distribution method, and all we are really paying is about five cents per transaction (which I imagine will be revised downward soon).
3. Perhaps a good metric to determine if BTC is overvalued is price divided by total BTC exchanged per day.
4. Many people (like me) run a node without mining and without compensation, for the good of the network.
5. We are not in any sort of steady-state equilibrium, and temporary distortions are to be expected.
1. Maybe the usd is worth less than we think it is.
2. As FreeMoney said, it is also a distribution method, and all we are really paying is about five cents per transaction (which I imagine will be revised downward soon).
3. Perhaps a good metric to determine if BTC is overvalued is price divided by total BTC exchanged per day.
4. Many people (like me) run a node without mining and without compensation, for the good of the network.
5. We are not in any sort of steady-state equilibrium, and temporary distortions are to be expected.
Bitcoin is currently in inflationary mode.
The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is around 17%, far beyond what the dollar's inflation is.
And yet it is attacked for its "deflation".
Keynesians should be loving Bitcoin right now.
If nobody new were buying bitcoins, you would be losing 17% of your wealth by keeping your funds in bitcoins.
But new people are buying...at a rate faster than inflation.
The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is around 17%, far beyond what the dollar's inflation is.
And yet it is attacked for its "deflation".
Keynesians should be loving Bitcoin right now.
If nobody new were buying bitcoins, you would be losing 17% of your wealth by keeping your funds in bitcoins.
But new people are buying...at a rate faster than inflation.
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The miners are currently being paid an equivalent of about $324000 per day through the block reward. (about 90 USD per BTC, 25 BTC per block, 144 blocks per day)
Do you think this amount is a reasonable amount to keep the network going?
Do you think this amount is a reasonable amount to keep the network going?
The Federal Reserve is currently pumping $1 billion into the Federal Reserve Note per day. Is this a reasonable amount?
No, I do not think what the Federal Reserve is doing is reasonable. How is that relevant to the current discussion?
It's a distribution method too. If you think it is more pay than the effort is worth go get your own piece of that free money.
Good point. But the profits from mining and the revenue for miners are not quite the same thing. If the price remains the same, but 10x the people start mining, then mining would not be profitable but we would still be paying the same $324000 per day to uphold the network (I guess you could also add in the losses of the miners as more money going into upholding the network?).
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The miners are currently being paid an equivalent of about $324000 per day through the block reward. (about 90 USD per BTC, 25 BTC per block, 144 blocks per day)
Do you think this amount is a reasonable amount to keep the network going?
Do you think this amount is a reasonable amount to keep the network going?
The Federal Reserve is currently pumping $1 billion into the Federal Reserve Note per day. Is this a reasonable amount?
"Lesser of two evils" argument? Boo. Bitcoin should stand on its own merits, and be defending logically, not emotionally. If there's something wrong with it, fix it or move to something else.
It's a distribution method too. If you think it is more pay than the effort is worth go get your own piece of that free money.
The miners are currently being paid an equivalent of about $324000 per day through the block reward. (about 90 USD per BTC, 25 BTC per block, 144 blocks per day)
Do you think this amount is a reasonable amount to keep the network going?
Do you think this amount is a reasonable amount to keep the network going?
The Federal Reserve is currently pumping $1 billion into the Federal Reserve Note per day. Is this a reasonable amount?
It would be ok if I had a bigger slice of the pie! 
zif
The only problem I see is that a small number of people are ending up with a majority of the wealth...just as we have in fiat.
zif
The only problem I see is that a small number of people are ending up with a majority of the wealth...just as we have in fiat.
There is a lot of evidence in any system that most of the wealth is concentrated in a small group of individuals. From what I've seen in a couple studies of the block chain, about 80% of the mined bitcoins are concentrated in 20% of the addresses, 80% of those are then in the top 20% of the 20%, etc. By my estimation, if there were 1 million people involved in bitcoin, the majority would control less than 1 BTC or owe BTC.
Early adopters benefited because they took the largest risk, and there is no way to create "equality" in owning bitcoins without forcibly taking bitcoins from one person and giving them to another. And even if that did happen, some people will always be better at accumulating coins than others, and the same discrepancy in BTC savings would reappear over time.
It's obviously way more than enough to prevent double spends. But the inflation schedule is not debatable, and the exchange rate is not controllable, so go be windbags about something else.
The inflation schedule is not debatable, and the exchange rate is not controllable, but if the amount given to miners is not sustainable then the price will trend downward (or upward if the amount is to low) until it reaches a point that is sustainable. The point of the discussion is to try to figure out what amount is sustainable.
Wasn't really addressed at you either...One interesting quantity to look at regarding sustainability of this reward could be the miner reward to exchange volume ratio. Here it is:
If we say it's exchange volume that sustains the block reward, then this graph suggests we're safe (w.r.t. inflationary downward pressure). Safer than we've ever been, actually. But the volume could be fleeting, so who knows.
Edit: cleaned up the graph
It would be ok if I had a bigger slice of the pie!
zif
The only problem I see is that a small number of people are ending up with a majority of the wealth...just as we have in fiat.
zif
The only problem I see is that a small number of people are ending up with a majority of the wealth...just as we have in fiat.
Exactly! If the Argentinian government can put their 25% inflation to good use by providing various governmental services, we should insist on miners doing the same! I think it's time for miners to step up and provide multi-signature support so that we can choose who to send our "transaction fee" taxes to!
Mmmm you should really read more about what the argentinean government practices!!!
Seriously, stopping people from second guessing other people's earnings is part of what bitcoin is all about.
Who are you to start deciding they "getting too much"? God? You sound like one of the commies at the Fed that wants to shut us down.
And for your information, genius, ALL of coins get produced by mining, so that means the miners receive ALL of the initial capitalization and this is obvious from the paper which maybe you ought to read some more so you understand it. So, if BTC goes up to $1000 and 10 million coins get mined after that, guess how much the miners get? $10 billion dollars, duh (plus the additional transaction fees).
Who are you to start deciding they "getting too much"? God? You sound like one of the commies at the Fed that wants to shut us down.
And for your information, genius, ALL of coins get produced by mining, so that means the miners receive ALL of the initial capitalization and this is obvious from the paper which maybe you ought to read some more so you understand it. So, if BTC goes up to $1000 and 10 million coins get mined after that, guess how much the miners get? $10 billion dollars, duh (plus the additional transaction fees).
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