A Resource Based Economy - page 19. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Spring Tide

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Quote from: LightRider on October 11, 2015, 08:55:50 PM

Quote from: Spring Tide on October 11, 2015, 06:42:51 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 06:12:36 AM

There can be no free market. Humanity cannot become free from reality. The market must create a state to protect itself from reality.

Could you please care to explain this post.

Market participants who attempt to extract profits through trading activities experience significant problems. The exploitation of natural resources and other people for private gain generates conflict.

I exploit other people for private gain myself, it's called employment. I am not generating any conflict. I'm happy with them, they're happy with me.

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 06:12:36 AM

To protect themselves from the consequences of that conflict, the market participants must create a state or government to quell those who are exploited. If the market did not do this, then there would be no profitable trading activity, as it would inevitably become intolerable by society as a whole.

You partially acknowledge the problem lies with governments and not the market itself. I am a market participant without the need of a state or government but still enjoy profitable trading atctivity, without the interference of any type of governing.

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 06:12:36 AM

This is because the state is generally also responsible for education, and the market would not tolerate the widespread knowledge of this fact.

A free market will tolerate the widespread knowledge of anything. A state/government will not.

It's governments that are screwing us over.
It's governments that are creating conflict.

"Humanity cannot become free from reality." What are you trying to point out here?

You say you're very pleased to see Bitcoin growing but your Zeitgeist movement wants to kill the free market just as most people in power.

The Zeitgeist movement wants to get rid of the market system as a whole. This will completely rob me of what little is left of my freedom.

LightRider

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Quote from: Spring Tide on October 11, 2015, 06:42:51 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 06:12:36 AM

There can be no free market. Humanity cannot become free from reality. The market must create a state to protect itself from reality.

Could you please care to explain this post.

Market participants who attempt to extract profits through trading activities experience significant problems. The exploitation of natural resources and other people for private gain generates conflict. To protect themselves from the consequences of that conflict, the market participants must create a state or government to quell those who are exploited. If the market did not do this, then there would be no profitable trading activity, as it would inevitably become intolerable by society as a whole. This is why the state often generates an external threat that diverts focus and attention away from the exploitative market. It's very simple, but not widely known. This is because the state is generally also responsible for education, and the market would not tolerate the widespread knowledge of this fact.

LightRider

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 11, 2015, 05:29:22 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 11, 2015, 02:02:11 PM

Market participants collaborate to the detriment of other market participants by forming cartels and trusts, artificially manipulating prices and erecting barriers to entry by using the state. This is another reason why markets are self destructive.

The plan is to remove the market function entirely. Provide universal access to the infrastructure, goods and services consistent with a highly developed modern life style. Without the pressures of artificial competition for money through labor, we can work together to produce more and better technologies and ideas. By emphasizing the value of collaboration over the destructive values produced by artificial competition, we can significantly reduce the amount of crime and other social problems prevalent in the market driven world today.

Cartels are formed when there is no competition, almost 100% of the case. Less competition is due to high taxes and regulations.

Artificially manipulated prices? That is called central bank, and its not a free market.

Erecting barriers through the state. But why is the state controlling the economy at all? That should be the first question that comes to your mind.

------------------------

Look a free market is simple, you trade 1 item for another, you want the other item more than yours, and the counterparty wants your item more than his, so when the trade is complete, you are both better off.

How is that not collaboration?

------------------------

Your ideas are nice and fine, but as of now its only a fantasy, and that shall remain, because there is no way to implement it in the current world, because once you give powers to somebody to do so, they will become corrupt, and will use the resources for himself. It's just not going to happen Cheesy

Cartels are formed to fend off competition. That's why they engage in anticompetitive practices. Cartels engage in price fixing because they are no longer competing against members of the cartel and therefor use their position to exploit buyers. Banks have nothing to do with that particular behavior. The state is an extension of the market, and through regulatory capture, enacts laws and regulations that enable the cartels and monopolies to function while preventing significant competition or innovation. This is a fact that you can't seem to understand, but you should learn about before continuing to talk about markets because you seem very ignorant on the subject.

The trading you describe is barter, not a sophisticated monetary market of the kind generally discussed. I agree that barter is better, but it is impractical on a global scale.

Spring Tide

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Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 06:12:36 AM

There can be no free market. Humanity cannot become free from reality. The market must create a state to protect itself from reality.

Could you please care to explain this post.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: LightRider on October 11, 2015, 02:02:11 PM

Market participants collaborate to the detriment of other market participants by forming cartels and trusts, artificially manipulating prices and erecting barriers to entry by using the state. This is another reason why markets are self destructive.

The plan is to remove the market function entirely. Provide universal access to the infrastructure, goods and services consistent with a highly developed modern life style. Without the pressures of artificial competition for money through labor, we can work together to produce more and better technologies and ideas. By emphasizing the value of collaboration over the destructive values produced by artificial competition, we can significantly reduce the amount of crime and other social problems prevalent in the market driven world today.

Cartels are formed when there is no competition, almost 100% of the case. Less competition is due to high taxes and regulations.

Artificially manipulated prices? That is called central bank, and its not a free market.

Erecting barriers through the state. But why is the state controlling the economy at all? That should be the first question that comes to your mind.

------------------------

Look a free market is simple, you trade 1 item for another, you want the other item more than yours, and the counterparty wants your item more than his, so when the trade is complete, you are both better off.

How is that not collaboration?

------------------------

Your ideas are nice and fine, but as of now its only a fantasy, and that shall remain, because there is no way to implement it in the current world, because once you give powers to somebody to do so, they will become corrupt, and will use the resources for himself. It's just not going to happen Cheesy

LightRider

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 11, 2015, 04:28:32 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 05:01:08 PM

Markets are competitive, not collaborative. That is why there is violence inherent in every market and the states that they create.

Sometimes they are competitive, in some cases they are collaborative.

And what is exactly your plan to make the market only collaborative?

Market participants collaborate to the detriment of other market participants by forming cartels and trusts, artificially manipulating prices and erecting barriers to entry by using the state. This is another reason why markets are self destructive.

The plan is to remove the market function entirely. Provide universal access to the infrastructure, goods and services consistent with a highly developed modern life style. Without the pressures of artificial competition for money through labor, we can work together to produce more and better technologies and ideas. By emphasizing the value of collaboration over the destructive values produced by artificial competition, we can significantly reduce the amount of crime and other social problems prevalent in the market driven world today.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: ngupowered on October 11, 2015, 05:15:29 AM

In my opinion, you are misinterpreting the definition of a "free market". Surely such a high VAT may have an indirect effect on prices, but the manufacturer's price itself is not subject to control. Compare a farmers market where a uniform admission fee is charged but the sellers still set their own price; it's unregulated.

Also, a percentage tax doesn't really affect competition since it subjects everyone to it - competition on equal terms.

No. VAT is meant to control prices.

If the government would not want to control prices then it would not have VAT or tariffs, it would just have 1 type of tax, and that would be it.

The reason why we got VAT,tariffs, income tax, etc is because they want to control the entire economy. That is not a free economy /free market.

Sorry but your logic fails.

StevenLiang

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Quote from: thejaytiesto on October 10, 2015, 02:21:57 PM

Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 01:39:04 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 01:05:21 PM

Stop being a professional troll. You aren't fooling anyone.

Sorry but this collectivist mindsent that is poisoning us for 300 years is just not going to move humanity forward.

In the past 300 years with the collectivism we have been enslaved more than any middle age serf could have imagined.

What we need is a free society with free market, not a totalitarian "resource based" system.

But, is a market really viable in a society where machines can make a surplus of a lot of stuff? is it possible to have a market when most jobs are just automated and most people simply "aren't needed"?

Well i'll tell you something, im not sure about it... and im a proposal for free market myself, but I think at some point in the future, it will make no sense. Maybe in 100, 1000 years, I don't care, it will eventually make no sense.

Today is not "past 300 years", we do not know about online in 1700s or even in 1950s.

There are too much change which open the other opportunity. That is life.
All rich people will become richer because of their own skill to see "the value of something". property, stock, gold, and.. people (Resouce Based)

ngupowered

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 11, 2015, 04:28:32 AM

Quote from: ngupowered on October 10, 2015, 04:53:51 PM

The definition clearly states that if prices are not regulated and there is competition, there is a free market. So, according to you, where is the gov. regulating prices?

VAT and GST aren't really regulatory in nature since they are just a percentage added and are uniform; companies still (freely) set price on the underlying commodity.

Yes but we look at the consumer price not the manufacturer. The consumer is buying the item at whatever the government sets to.

If a pair of shoes costs 5$ to manufacture, and the government puts 95$ VAT on it, you pay 100$, how the fuck is that not price control?

In my opinion, you are misinterpreting the definition of a "free market". Surely such a high VAT may have an indirect effect on prices, but the manufacturer's price itself is not subject to control. Compare a farmers market where a uniform admission fee is charged but the sellers still set their own price; it's unregulated.

Also, a percentage tax doesn't really affect competition since it subjects everyone to it - competition on equal terms.

V for Varoufakis

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There is no free market. The banking system is centralized, so it is communistic. Also bitcoin is centralized and communistic.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: pereira4 on October 10, 2015, 06:48:33 PM

True, but the point is, when there is a surplus of stuff, you can just use it and send it back to a place that stores all that stuff, I think this is the correct mindset for the future. Using something for free and then giving it back so other people can use it, instead of storing useless shit we only use once.

That is contrary to human nature.

Human nature is based on hoarding and scarce resources. Whenever somebody find some rare item, he rather hoards it, instead of letting others to use it.

You are trying to change 1 million years old genetic instincts in a few years of "Venus Project" , well good luck with that. You dont understand how humanity's essence works.

Better luck trying your system with another species because with humans it wont work.

__________________________________-

Plus if you would put "income" tax on plants, in the forms of limiting the CO2 plants get, it's not like the plants will go a tax revolt.

However they will create less oxigen for humans, and we will all suffocate. Thats what government regulation does to the economy too.

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: ngupowered on October 10, 2015, 04:53:51 PM

The definition clearly states that if prices are not regulated and there is competition, there is a free market. So, according to you, where is the gov. regulating prices?

VAT and GST aren't really regulatory in nature since they are just a percentage added and are uniform; companies still (freely) set price on the underlying commodity.

Yes but we look at the consumer price not the manufacturer. The consumer is buying the item at whatever the government sets to.

If a pair of shoes costs 5$ to manufacture, and the government puts 95$ VAT on it, you pay 100$, how the fuck is that not price control?

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 05:01:08 PM

Markets are competitive, not collaborative. That is why there is violence inherent in every market and the states that they create.

Sometimes they are competitive, in some cases they are collaborative.

And what is exactly your plan to make the market only collaborative?

qiwoman2

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To transition to a resource based economy the Human Race must become more civilised and more disciplined. We cannot go to this level of economic stature unless we can become higher in consciousness and more caring towards others. This doesn't mean that our creativity should be thwarted, on the contrary I believe a resource based economy will facilitate more creativity and thriving in the Human Family than with the current economic systems at play.

pereira4

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 02:27:44 PM

Quote from: thejaytiesto on October 10, 2015, 02:21:57 PM

But, is a market really viable in a society where machines can make a surplus of a lot of stuff? is it possible to have a market when most jobs are just automated and most people simply "aren't needed"?

Well i'll tell you something, im not sure about it... and im a proposal for free market myself, but I think at some point in the future, it will make no sense. Maybe in 100, 1000 years, I don't care, it will eventually make no sense.

Yes because trading will always exist, and has always existed, since the beginning of the universe.

When you inhale air you trade your CO2 to the plants, and the plants give in return O2.

Not all trades are commercial, but trading will always be present. And for a trade you will always need a market, so the best and most efficient form is a free market, not a controlled zombie market.

Otherwise lets put trading tariffs and regulations on the plants O2 trade, and lets make the plants pay income tax

-------------------------------------

Trust me free market in its core will always be needed, even in the soviet union you could trade basic things, you just couldnt had means of productions. Imagine if you could have, people would live better.

Controlled market VS Free market is like a disabled wheelchair person vs a marathon runner athlete, you just cant compare the two.

True, but the point is, when there is a surplus of stuff, you can just use it and send it back to a place that stores all that stuff, I think this is the correct mindset for the future. Using something for free and then giving it back so other people can use it, instead of storing useless shit we only use once.

LightRider

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 04:06:13 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 03:55:57 PM

We've never had a collectivist mindset. We've never had global real time collaborative capability. A global human effort to engage in a sustainable and rational economy has never been attempted. Markets have always failed and lead to ruin.

But the free market is collaboration too.

What you try to build will be a top down centralized system (since there is no other way to move resources "for the common good" elseway).

And a centralized system always needs force to keep the subjects in line, and force is violence, so what you are advocating, wont be a peaceful utopia, but rather a tyranical world dictatorship.

Markets are competitive, not collaborative. That is why there is violence inherent in every market and the states that they create.

ngupowered

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 04:04:18 PM

Quote from: ngupowered on October 10, 2015, 03:46:11 PM

Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 06:29:40 AM

Sorry but free market is the way to go: tiny or no regulations, and tiny or no taxes

Merriam-Webster defines "free market" as

" an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government "

So, accordingly, to you denying the current paradigm to be a free market, in the US. for instance, where has the gov. stepped in and regulated prices for private businesses not subject to US. law?

I dont understand your question, but the dictionary definition is pretty spot on.
And thus you realize that every market is controlled, because every market is either regulated or taxed, or both. And both the tax & the regulation distorts its price.

Tell me a VAT or (GST) tax doesnt distort the real price of any item? Doesnt the income tax destroy the spending power of the workers, and thus create mal-investments in the economy and tons of worthless bureocrats?

The definition clearly states that if prices are not regulated and there is competition, there is a free market. So, according to you, where is the gov. regulating prices?

VAT and GST aren't really regulatory in nature since they are just a percentage added and are uniform; companies still (freely) set price on the underlying commodity.

RealBitcoin

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Activity: 854

Merit: 1009

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Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 03:55:57 PM

We've never had a collectivist mindset. We've never had global real time collaborative capability. A global human effort to engage in a sustainable and rational economy has never been attempted. Markets have always failed and lead to ruin.

But the free market is collaboration too.

What you try to build will be a top down centralized system (since there is no other way to move resources "for the common good" elseway).

And a centralized system always needs force to keep the subjects in line, and force is violence, so what you are advocating, wont be a peaceful utopia, but rather a tyranical world dictatorship.

RealBitcoin

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1009

JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK

Quote from: ngupowered on October 10, 2015, 03:46:11 PM

Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 06:29:40 AM

Sorry but free market is the way to go: tiny or no regulations, and tiny or no taxes

Merriam-Webster defines "free market" as

" an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government "

So, accordingly, to you denying the current paradigm to be a free market, in the US. for instance, where has the gov. stepped in and regulated prices for private businesses not subject to US. law?

I dont understand your question, but the dictionary definition is pretty spot on.

And thus you realize that every market is controlled, because every market is either regulated or taxed, or both. And both the tax & the regulation distorts its price.

Tell me a VAT or (GST) tax doesnt distort the real price of any item? Doesnt the income tax destroy the spending power of the workers, and thus create mal-investments in the economy and tons of worthless bureocrats?

Yes it's not a free market, not by far.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 01:39:04 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 10, 2015, 01:05:21 PM

Stop being a professional troll. You aren't fooling anyone.

Sorry but this collectivist mindsent that is poisoning us for 300 years is just not going to move humanity forward.

In the past 300 years with the collectivism we have been enslaved more than any middle age serf could have imagined.

What we need is a free society with free market, not a totalitarian "resource based" system.

We've never had a collectivist mindset. We've never had global real time collaborative capability. A global human effort to engage in a sustainable and rational economy has never been attempted. Markets have always failed and lead to ruin.

ngupowered

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Quote from: RealBitcoin on October 10, 2015, 06:29:40 AM

Sorry but free market is the way to go: tiny or no regulations, and tiny or no taxes

Merriam-Webster defines "free market" as

" an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government "

So, accordingly, to you denying the current paradigm to be a free market, in the US. for instance, where has the gov. stepped in and regulated prices for private businesses not subject to US. law?

Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 19. (Read 288373 times)