A Resource Based Economy - page 21. | Bitcointalksearch.org

deisik

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Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 21, 2015, 04:57:56 AM

Quote from: deisik on September 21, 2015, 04:30:39 AM

And what's good in it? Isn't what you say looks more like Socialism, or, rather, Communism, the point that I made at the start?

By giving money for free you disincentivize those who are hard earning it

No it is not Communism. Your property remains private. Keynesianism is a mathematical game of balance. You give free money ONLY when it needed to create balance or for funding, and you remove money for the same reason. Maybe you dont understand it and my english is not good to explain to you.

Sorry, but I don't see anything good in it. This system if applied will be heavily abused. And I don't see any merits on its own when compared to a purely free-market regulation of the amount of money in circulation

V for Varoufakis

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Activity: 261

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Quote from: deisik on September 21, 2015, 04:30:39 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 21, 2015, 04:27:37 AM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 09:31:16 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 06:24:02 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 04:49:23 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

Money is not a commodity. It is outside of the market.

I was referring to endogenous money creation and destruction through credit (as opposed to a planned method of doing the same, by mathematical model or otherwise), which is regulated by free market mechanisms, that is, through the laws of supply and demand void of any intervention from outside...

I m talking about the money creation and destruction without credit. Why you need credit? Print money and give it free. This is the Keynesian way.

And what's good in it? Isn't what you say looks more like Socialism, or, rather, Communism, the point that I made at the start?

By giving money for free you disincentivize those who are hard earning it

No it is not Communism. Your property remains private. Keynesianism is a mathematical game of balance. You give free money ONLY when it needed to create balance or for funding, and you remove money for the same reason. Maybe you dont understand it and my english is not good to explain to you.

deisik

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 1280

English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 21, 2015, 04:27:37 AM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 09:31:16 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 06:24:02 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 04:49:23 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

Money is not a commodity. It is outside of the market.

I was referring to endogenous money creation and destruction through credit (as opposed to a planned method of doing the same, by mathematical model or otherwise), which is regulated by free market mechanisms, that is, through the laws of supply and demand void of any intervention from outside...

I m talking about the money creation and destruction without credit. Why you need credit? Print money and give it free. This is the Keynesian way.

And what's good in it? Isn't what you say looks more like Socialism, or, rather, Communism, the point that I made at the start?

By giving money for free you disincentivize those who are hard earning it, those who create goods

V for Varoufakis

sr. member

Activity: 261

Merit: 250

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 09:31:16 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 06:24:02 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 04:49:23 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

Money is not a commodity. It is outside of the market.

I was referring to endogenous money creation and destruction through credit (as opposed to a planned method of doing the same, by mathematical model or otherwise), which is regulated by free market mechanisms, that is, through the laws of supply and demand void of any intervention from outside...

I m talking about the money creation and destruction without credit. Why you need credit? Print money and give it free. This is the Keynesian way.

deisik

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 1280

English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 06:24:02 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 04:49:23 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

Money is not a commodity. It is outside of the market.

I was referring to endogenous money creation and destruction through credit (as opposed to a planned method of doing the same, by mathematical model or otherwise), which is regulated by free market mechanisms, that is, through the laws of supply and demand void of any intervention from outside...

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc1Gbdy92uY

Basic Income and other ways to fix capitalism | Federico Pistono at TEDxHaarlem

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1021

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 06:24:02 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 04:49:23 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

Money is not a commodity. It is outside of the market.

You must be joking. Monetary markets are one of the most significant portions of the modern financial system.

V for Varoufakis

sr. member

Activity: 261

Merit: 250

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 04:49:23 PM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

Money is not a commodity. It is outside of the market.

deisik

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 1280

English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 04:09:16 PM

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

Okay, but in this case wouldn't they "who control the means of production" turn into the ones who control the "method to create and destroy money"? Further, since it is a mathematical construct (i.e. a set of predetermined rules and routines), it is opposed to the free market regulation (of, say, money creation and destruction), right?

V for Varoufakis

sr. member

Activity: 261

Merit: 250

Quote from: deisik on September 20, 2015, 10:13:24 AM

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

Keynesianism is not a political system. It is a mathematic method to create and destroy money. It is not related to the question: "Who controls the means of production?" You can combine it with anything:
Keynesianism + Capitalism
Keynesianism + Socialism
Keynesianism + Communism

deisik

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 1280

English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: V for Varoufakis on September 20, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

If so, wouldn't that part (which is good in Capitalism by means of Keynesianism) have more to do with Socialism, being socialistic due to economic planning and public ownership (if I got your point right)?

V for Varoufakis

sr. member

Activity: 261

Merit: 250

Capitalism is good ONLY in combination with Keynesian mathematics.

ngupowered

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Quote from: LightRider on September 19, 2015, 12:56:45 PM

You know that capitalism is a failure. Why you continue to support it remains a mystery.

Pride, too much invested in the system, competitive upbringing that taught self-worth through hard work, low self-esteem, psychopathic tendencies nurtured in the competitive ethos of the free market, delusions of grandeur, stupidity, Stockholm syndrome - pick your favourite!

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1021

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: RealBitcoin on September 19, 2015, 02:48:27 AM

Quote from: LightRider on September 18, 2015, 11:37:11 AM

In your non existent free market utopia, who prevents individuals or cartels from printing money? Who decides what money is? Why should disparate interests agree on what money is? Isn't the addition of artificial illusory wealth the source of great and needless conflict? Isn't the exploitation of the worker by the capitalist another source of great and needless conflict? Why do the capitalists insist on systems that have conflict built in to them? Why do they never advocate for systems built around cooperation instead? Do you like the wars, violence and death that capitalism creates so much? Is it entertaining to you? Are you just ignorant of the economic realities that you advocating for? Are you stubbornly for your own destruction for reasons that you haven't shared? It's very strange.

Nothing, but printed money is not dangerous if you dont use it. I dont care if the zimbabwe dollar is hyperinflated because i`m not using it.

If somebody start to print money, who cares. Just dont use it.

Also in a free market bitcoin is the most likely currecny to be used by the masses, so we know bitcoin cannot be printed.

The free market is choosing bitcoin at the moment.

......

I`m too lazy to respond to your other points 1000x times, i`ve already explained the basis of capitalism, and you keep asking thousands of questions that i have answered already.

Typical. You aren't too lazy, you just have no decent responses to offer. You know that capitalism is a failure. Why you continue to support it remains a mystery.

ngupowered

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Quote from: ?? on ??

The only way to solve this issue is to reduce taxes on the poor, end QE and stop pilfering away the wealth of savers by endlessly printing money.

Because, by not printing money, you don't just stop the poor people being robbed, but you shrink the income gap which is the most important thing

Believe it or not, you are neither required to pay tax nor use gov. controlled fiat money, yet people keep going to prison for not paying them and still trade in gov. money - welcome to free market capitalism!
I know how to explain that seemingly apparent contradiction - do you?

RealBitcoin

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1009

JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK

Quote from: ?? on ??

The only way to solve this issue is to reduce taxes on the poor, end QE and stop pilfering away the wealth of savers by endlessly printing money.

Because, by not printing money, you don't just stop the poor people being robbed, but you shrink the income gap which is the most important thing

That was my point too, but you summed up very well.

Although I feel that eliminating taxes entirely is much better than just reducing them to a smaller size.

Or atleast the income tax has to be eliminated, and gradually the other taxes can be diminished. I dont mind paying property taxes, but man a 40-50% income tax like in Belgium, Denmark, and other countries is just horrible.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1006

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: LightRider on September 17, 2015, 10:49:55 PM

The market system forces people to participate in a forced artificial labor for income/survival situation. How is that not tyranny?

You can also stop thinking of "market" as a system and instead as a tool. There is no "free market" any more than their can be a perfectly planned society. Markets can be used for edge cases where planning doesn't work. Planning is great if it is done smartly and fairly, but we're not there yet. We can't get there if we throw away the tools we may need to build an RBE society.

"Markets" are a paradigm that can only be diminished when people understand they are not needed, but that day is a long way off. People only replace useful tools when better tools become available.

RealBitcoin

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1009

JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK

Quote from: LightRider on September 18, 2015, 11:37:11 AM

In your non existent free market utopia, who prevents individuals or cartels from printing money? Who decides what money is? Why should disparate interests agree on what money is? Isn't the addition of artificial illusory wealth the source of great and needless conflict? Isn't the exploitation of the worker by the capitalist another source of great and needless conflict? Why do the capitalists insist on systems that have conflict built in to them? Why do they never advocate for systems built around cooperation instead? Do you like the wars, violence and death that capitalism creates so much? Is it entertaining to you? Are you just ignorant of the economic realities that you advocating for? Are you stubbornly for your own destruction for reasons that you haven't shared? It's very strange.

Nothing, but printed money is not dangerous if you dont use it. I dont care if the zimbabwe dollar is hyperinflated because i`m not using it.

If somebody start to print money, who cares. Just dont use it.

Also in a free market bitcoin is the most likely currecny to be used by the masses, so we know bitcoin cannot be printed.

The free market is choosing bitcoin at the moment.

......

I`m too lazy to respond to your other points 1000x times, i`ve already explained the basis of capitalism, and you keep asking thousands of questions that i have answered already.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1021

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

In your non existent free market utopia, who prevents individuals or cartels from printing money? Who decides what money is? Why should disparate interests agree on what money is? Isn't the addition of artificial illusory wealth the source of great and needless conflict? Isn't the exploitation of the worker by the capitalist another source of great and needless conflict? Why do the capitalists insist on systems that have conflict built in to them? Why do they never advocate for systems built around cooperation instead? Do you like the wars, violence and death that capitalism creates so much? Is it entertaining to you? Are you just ignorant of the economic realities that you advocating for? Are you stubbornly for your own destruction for reasons that you haven't shared? It's very strange.

ngupowered

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Quote from: ?? on ??

The welfare comes from printed money, so the working class, and the poor people actually shuffle the wealth between them, while the rich gets richer.

I'm afraid that it is you who ought to take an economics class. Money printing causes inflation and devalues the wealth held in those currencies, thus causing wealth redistribution to those receiving the newly printed money. It actually doesn't matter whether it is printed or actual wealth, as long as the money received has purchasing power.

Quote from: ?? on ??

The rich cannot be taxed, because they own the corporations, that can just outsource the taxes anytime. The only way to solve this issue is to not tax the poor, and not print money.

To my knowledge, the law doesn't differentiate between rich or poor, but only to the extent of percentage of tax owed.

Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 21. (Read 288303 times)