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Topic: A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value - page 4. (Read 1435 times)

jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 06:15:06 AM


You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.


No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.
In this case, scamming object is not bitcoin but computers that store blockchain, and in that regard bitcoin owners do not own these computers like box would be owned in mentioned diamond scam. So, in the diamond scam you would at least have the box that can provide you with some utility. It the Bitcoin scam you are left with useless numbers that can provide zero utility.
jr. member
Activity: 61
Merit: 3
September 25, 2018, 06:12:21 AM



I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?



Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?
Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.

Wow that’s rich. You have not disproved that physical bitcoins don’t have intrinsic value. But this must have hit to close to home so I don’t blame you for giving up. You just lost the fight you picked.
jr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 1
September 25, 2018, 05:56:52 AM
#99


You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.


No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 05:44:39 AM
#98


You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.


No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 05:27:26 AM
#97



I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?



Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?
Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.
jr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 1
September 25, 2018, 05:26:11 AM
#96


You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.
[/quote]

Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 05:18:50 AM
#95


I already responded to all these points, but there is one more point that I want to add, since people here constantly conflate the degree of value of X and value of X. Of course that the degree of value varies with regards to the subjective preferences of people and the circumstances in which they find themselves. The degree of water value for a man dying of thirst in a desert if obviously higher then for a man who stays in the Plaza Hotel. But this has nothing to do with value of water. Water is valuable because it can provide utility to people and this is true regardless of the degree of water value. So, value is indeed based on subjective preferences, but only in the case of things that already have value, i.e. things whose inherent properties can provide utility to people. Bitcoin - a byte in a memory and a grain of sand cannot provide such utility, so the above subjectivity does not apply to them. Or to put it another way, subjectivity cannot make valueless thing valuable - it can only change the degree of value of valuable things.

Another series of bullshit.

1) water provides  degree of utility to people in certain circumstances and therefore definitely varies in value, depending on context. A dying man´s body absorbs water, giving it a value as high as life. I, on the other hand, drink at the moment water out of boredom and pee out most of it. This concrete portion of water has day and night difference of value for me and dying man.

2) Bitcoin, byte or not, has some value. Most of people here would give me water in return of BTC. So BTC is subjectively valuable for them, if I really need water, its valuable for me too. If no person on earth would trade me water in return of BTC, it would have zero value for me, therefore being valueless.

3) Now You are retreating from Your own arguments. If subjectivity can change degree of value, then it can also make valueless things valuable and vice versa. Valueless thing is a valuable thing with value degree of zero for that subject.

From the premise: most of people would give me X in return of Y it does not follow: X has value. People can give things for various reasons, be it: ignorance, stupidity, fraud, manipulation, etc. A lot of people had given their money to enter in various pyramid schemes. But that didn't make these schemes valuable. Hence, your logic is flawed.

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.
jr. member
Activity: 61
Merit: 3
September 25, 2018, 05:07:23 AM
#94



I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?



Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?
jr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 1
September 25, 2018, 04:47:47 AM
#93


I already responded to all these points, but there is one more point that I want to add, since people here constantly conflate the degree of value of X and value of X. Of course that the degree of value varies with regards to the subjective preferences of people and the circumstances in which they find themselves. The degree of water value for a man dying of thirst in a desert if obviously higher then for a man who stays in the Plaza Hotel. But this has nothing to do with value of water. Water is valuable because it can provide utility to people and this is true regardless of the degree of water value. So, value is indeed based on subjective preferences, but only in the case of things that already have value, i.e. things whose inherent properties can provide utility to people. Bitcoin - a byte in a memory and a grain of sand cannot provide such utility, so the above subjectivity does not apply to them. Or to put it another way, subjectivity cannot make valueless thing valuable - it can only change the degree of value of valuable things.

Another series of bullshit.

1) water provides  degree of utility to people in certain circumstances and therefore definitely varies in value, depending on context. A dying man´s body absorbs water, giving it a value as high as life. I, on the other hand, drink at the moment water out of boredom and pee out most of it. This concrete portion of water has day and night difference of value for me and dying man.

2) Bitcoin, byte or not, has some value. Most of people here would give me water in return of BTC. So BTC is subjectively valuable for them, if I really need water, its valuable for me too. If no person on earth would trade me water in return of BTC, it would have zero value for me, therefore being valueless.

3) Now You are retreating from Your own arguments. If subjectivity can change degree of value, then it can also make valueless things valuable and vice versa. Valueless thing is a valuable thing with value degree of zero for that subject.

From the premise: most of people would give me X in return of Y it does not follow: X has value. People can give things for various reasons, be it: ignorance, stupidity, fraud, manipulation, etc. A lot of people had given their money to enter in various pyramid schemes. But that didn't make these schemes valuable. Hence, your logic is flawed.

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 04:45:37 AM
#92



I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?



Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 04:33:38 AM
#91


I already responded to all these points, but there is one more point that I want to add, since people here constantly conflate the degree of value of X and value of X. Of course that the degree of value varies with regards to the subjective preferences of people and the circumstances in which they find themselves. The degree of water value for a man dying of thirst in a desert if obviously higher then for a man who stays in the Plaza Hotel. But this has nothing to do with value of water. Water is valuable because it can provide utility to people and this is true regardless of the degree of water value. So, value is indeed based on subjective preferences, but only in the case of things that already have value, i.e. things whose inherent properties can provide utility to people. Bitcoin - a byte in a memory and a grain of sand cannot provide such utility, so the above subjectivity does not apply to them. Or to put it another way, subjectivity cannot make valueless thing valuable - it can only change the degree of value of valuable things.

Another series of bullshit.

1) water provides  degree of utility to people in certain circumstances and therefore definitely varies in value, depending on context. A dying man´s body absorbs water, giving it a value as high as life. I, on the other hand, drink at the moment water out of boredom and pee out most of it. This concrete portion of water has day and night difference of value for me and dying man.

2) Bitcoin, byte or not, has some value. Most of people here would give me water in return of BTC. So BTC is subjectively valuable for them, if I really need water, its valuable for me too. If no person on earth would trade me water in return of BTC, it would have zero value for me, therefore being valueless.

3) Now You are retreating from Your own arguments. If subjectivity can change degree of value, then it can also make valueless things valuable and vice versa. Valueless thing is a valuable thing with value degree of zero for that subject.

From the premise: most of people would give me X in return of Y it does not follow: X has value. People can give things for various reasons, be it: ignorance, stupidity, fraud, manipulation, etc. A lot of people had given their money to enter in various pyramid schemes. But that didn't make these schemes valuable. Hence, your logic is flawed.
jr. member
Activity: 61
Merit: 3
September 25, 2018, 04:28:41 AM
#90
jr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 1
September 25, 2018, 03:50:28 AM
#89


I already responded to all these points, but there is one more point that I want to add, since people here constantly conflate the degree of value of X and value of X. Of course that the degree of value varies with regards to the subjective preferences of people and the circumstances in which they find themselves. The degree of water value for a man dying of thirst in a desert if obviously higher then for a man who stays in the Plaza Hotel. But this has nothing to do with value of water. Water is valuable because it can provide utility to people and this is true regardless of the degree of water value. So, value is indeed based on subjective preferences, but only in the case of things that already have value, i.e. things whose inherent properties can provide utility to people. Bitcoin - a byte in a memory and a grain of sand cannot provide such utility, so the above subjectivity does not apply to them. Or to put it another way, subjectivity cannot make valueless thing valuable - it can only change the degree of value of valuable things.

Another series of bullshit.

1) water provides  degree of utility to people in certain circumstances and therefore definitely varies in value, depending on context. A dying man´s body absorbs water, giving it a value as high as life. I, on the other hand, drink at the moment water out of boredom and pee out most of it. This concrete portion of water has day and night difference of value for me and dying man.

2) Bitcoin, byte or not, has some value. Most of people here would give me water in return of BTC. So BTC is subjectively valuable for them, if I really need water, its valuable for me too. If no person on earth would trade me water in return of BTC, it would have zero value for me, therefore being valueless.

3) Now You are retreating from Your own arguments. If subjectivity can change degree of value, then it can also make valueless things valuable and vice versa. Valueless thing is a valuable thing with value degree of zero for that subject.
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 03:14:42 AM
#88
jr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 2
September 25, 2018, 01:58:20 AM
#87
Bitcoin has value, because a lot of resources must be spent (hardware, electricity and bandwidth) to mine Bitcoins. Gold and Silver are unfounded but they have value, because it’s difficult to be found and mined. The same applies to Bitcoin. Bitcoin has unique features, so people want it, and they pay for it.

So, Bitcoin HAS value. Countries tolerate Bitcoin, because they know that it has value, and it’s not a scam.

Your logic is wrong. If a guy who lives in Australia goes to France just to get a grain of sand from a beach in St Tropez, he would spend lots of resources to "mine" that grain of sand. But, does that mean a grain of sand has value? Of course not. Value of X comes from the utility of X, which will stay the same regardless of the resources required to get it. X will stay X, sand will stay sand and number(bitcoin) will stay number even if trillions of dollars are spent to get them. 

So, your argument in the form: "Bitcoin is mined -> mining requires resources (hardware, electricity) ->  resources have value -> therefore Bitcoin has value", is invalid.  If an effect is caused by something that is very valuable this won't make effect valuable. For e.g., smashing Bugatti Veyron into the wall won't make damaged wall valuable.

It is mind-blowing how many irrational excuses are used here just to justify the ownership of a worthless number which occupies one byte in a publicly distributed database.
jr. member
Activity: 61
Merit: 3
September 24, 2018, 11:23:42 PM
#86
...
Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.

I know OP from his other threads. Sometimes he is thought-provoking, I'll give him that, but usually he would just waffle around good old "bitcoin is worthless because it has no intrinsic value" rhetoric, acting like he has come up with something new.

In this thread he attempts to re-define the meaning of the word "value" to fit his narrative. I don't think there's a single country in the world that would allow you not to pay taxes on otherwise taxable income just because you take bitcoin as a payment, or allow you to hide your wealth in bitcoin from wife you're divorcing - because it has no value, right?
Any sensible person would rather adjust his definitions to be compatible with the rest of the world - but that wouldn't earn him 5 pages of replies.

I have heard that bitcoin has no intrinsic value countless times from naysayers but I don't think that is the case. Correct me if I am wrong but the bitcoins that are printed on paper that come out of those bitcoin atm machines with the qr code on them have every bit of intrinsic value as paper money has. As in you can use them to write on, or start a fire with ect.. matter of fact you can just carve a wallet address or put a qr code on anything you want like a bar of gold or like those physical bitcoins they sell that you can load the amount of BTC you want on it. Bitcoin does not have intrinsic value because it doesn't need to have it but anyone can give bitcoin intrinsic value by turning it into something physical they can hold if they want to.
jr. member
Activity: 61
Merit: 3
September 24, 2018, 06:40:41 PM
#85
full member
Activity: 546
Merit: 102
September 24, 2018, 06:36:34 PM
#84
Dang it read 4 pages just to realize op is just trolling around, I don't even consider him serious anymore. many people already explained to him in so many ways that even beginners can understand and he just refuses to accept the fact.

Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.
Yes, he was trying to figure out a philosophical means of logical ideas but it should have not be calculated like that,  he wants to proved that bitcoin is just a number but didn't elaborate that the digital number itself has an equivament value of that real currency. So if I have 2 bitcoins then I will buy many iphones and make it included to its computation.

he forgot about doing POW on a bitcoin network that requires a lot of money, costs to ensure the data flow remains safe
and this keep increase every day, as Franky1 explained on page one
full member
Activity: 510
Merit: 102
September 24, 2018, 04:48:30 PM
#83
Dang it read 4 pages just to realize op is just trolling around, I don't even consider him serious anymore. many people already explained to him in so many ways that even beginners can understand and he just refuses to accept the fact.

Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.
Yes, he was trying to figure out a philosophical means of logical ideas but it should have not be calculated like that,  he wants to proved that bitcoin is just a number but didn't elaborate that the digital number itself has an equivament value of that real currency. So if I have 2 bitcoins then I will buy many iphones and make it included to its computation.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
September 24, 2018, 04:38:12 PM
#82
Dang it read 4 pages just to realize op is just trolling around, I don't even consider him serious anymore. many people already explained to him in so many ways that even beginners can understand and he just refuses to accept the fact.

Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.

It's interesting for a moment, until you realize that the entire debate hinges on the OP's rigid and arbitrary definitions of "value." He keeps changing the definition of "value" to fit his narrative, and his definitions are completely out of touch with society's. It's a futile exercise to argue against this kind of logic. He may not be intentionally trolling, but his approach is intellectually dishonest.
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