Topic: A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value - page 5. (Read 1435 times)

I know OP from his other threads. Sometimes he is thought-provoking, I'll give him that, but usually he would just waffle around good old "bitcoin is worthless because it has no intrinsic value" rhetoric, acting like he has come up with something new.

In this thread he attempts to re-define the meaning of the word "value" to fit his narrative. I don't think there's a single country in the world that would allow you not to pay taxes on otherwise taxable income just because you take bitcoin as a payment, or allow you to hide your wealth in bitcoin from wife you're divorcing - because it has no value, right?
Any sensible person would rather adjust his definitions to be compatible with the rest of the world - but that wouldn't earn him 5 pages of replies.

Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.

Dang it read 4 pages just to realize op is just trolling around, I don't even consider him serious anymore. many people already explained to him in so many ways that even beginners can understand and he just refuses to accept the fact.

But these numbers that banks "create out of thin air" and take liabilities from people (in our case) with collateral needs to be transferred from somewhere. From its asset side - double entry bookkeeping. In other words, if a small bank which assets are 1 mil USD and 100 people want 100 mil USD loan (they want to take the liability) with a sufficient collateral, this small banks cannot provide the loans for them. They cannot create a number out of thin air and forward that number to these people that want the loan (and have a good collateral to get it), simply because it does not have the assets or funds to do that.

Does a airbnb platform have value? And I mean just the platform itself, without the company behind it, without the real estates which are on the platform. The platform itself is only bunch of numbers and other data.

I would not say that bitcoin is worthless because of the current decline, because prices for coins are comparable to the technology they have, despite all the negative signs in the crypto currency market, and in general the world has a bad reputation, but Bitcoin is still very valuable compared to coins crypto others.

No currency has real value anymore. It’s all air. The only difference between fiat currencies and cryptocurrencies is that cryptocurrencies works faster, cheaper, is decentralized (no banks needed) and deflationary, instead of the greatest theft in the world: inflation.
Nature will always choose the path of least resistance or the most effective path. The most effective path is cryptocurrencies.

Shares is a piece of paper, bitcoin is a digital currency. What would you say if the person holding US$ is having it stored on PayPal, or if the person having iPhones has 2 iPhones that are non-functioning?

Ever heard of a digital signature? That's how one can prove they own those bitcoins.

You do know that USD is created out of thin air, as in, they are printed limitlessly and yet have people starving to death. Shares and bitcoin, both of their prices are determined by market forces. And shares ARE created out of thin air. Sometimes ownership of a company's capital means nothing.

Bitcoin is not just a number, stop misleading people. Its a currency that has now become more of a speculative asset. Bitcoin has value, like it or not. It is not zero, if it was, nobody would be using it, and nobody would be "hodling" it. No one can explain anything to you,if you live in blindspread ignorance.

Bitcoin has value, because a lot of resources must be spent (hardware, electricity and bandwidth) to mine Bitcoins. Gold and Silver are unfounded but they have value, because it’s difficult to be found and mined. The same applies to Bitcoin. Bitcoin has unique features, so people want it, and they pay for it.

So, Bitcoin HAS value. Countries tolerate Bitcoin, because they know that it has value, and it’s not a scam.

A bank indeed creates numbers out of thin air since they are just ... numbers, and there is no other way to create them. What the bank must take from somewhere is liability, or in other words, a person that will take liability to return numbers to the bank and offer some collateral for that. Numbers are just means to express the size of this liability and of course they are created out of thin air.

I explained the term "value" in the post above.

i have a theory that all thing that in the world is have the zero values at the beginning, but we can see that the demand and the stock of that thing is not stable, sometimes the stock is low and sometimes the stock is high, it is makes the value of that things is always changes every time

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” G. Carlin.

How do you mean that bank creates number out of thin air and gives this number to borrower? Bank cannot just create number of thin air, but it needs it to take it from somewhere. From it's asset. It does not have unlimited funds to lend money to borrowers worthy of it. It cannot just create money.

Please explain us your understanding of term "value". In the equilibrium of supply and demand there is an absolute value of a good or service. I.e. the price, basically. And that can be "calculated" only long term.

Don't hurt your mind to much thinking about it. What is really amusing to me is that even though elitist like you have wasted a lot of their life learning facts in higher education they still need poorly educated people like me to school you on what value is.

If "the value of a thing is it's ability to provide some utility" and value is not subjective please tell me what makes a painting or artwork valuable. Why is some art worth nothing and some paintings are worth a million dollars?

Do you really think everyone on this planet values their heart exactly the same even as a utility? There are people on this earth that have some serious problems and are in traumatic consent pain they can only pray and hope that their heart gives out so they may die because that's what they want.

Is an engines sole purpose to convert energy into mechanical energy? Are there not old steam, airplane, and motorcycle engines in museums on display strictly for their design and aesthetic features? Value is always a utility? Is everyone's time worth exactly the same? Is everyone's love and friendship the same?

I don't think the question here is does the heart pump blood or an engine make mechanical power. Of corse it does. Are these things utilities, yes and they are also other things besides utilities. What I am saying here is the value of those things are different to different people and value is subjective not objective. An elitist such as yourself tries to tell people what the value of something is. The truth is you have no say in what is valuable to me or in my life and vice versa.

Values of things are subjective and do not have set prices in which they are worth the same all the time. Even circumstance can make the same item two different prices to the same person.

Bitcoin is worth zero? I'm sorry but this thing you say is worth nothing can buy my airplane ticket to travel across the country so to me it has some value. What you are saying just isn't good enough.

Things need to be utilities for them to have value? Honestly I don't even believe you believe that. I think you are just trying to talk yourself into your weird way of thinking. I'm glad you spent a lot of your time and money going to higher education to learn how to make a simple chart to explain to others the way you think is better then the way they think. I'm happy for you. You have the world figured out. But in all honesty I don't think anyone here really cares and if I were you I'd go get my money back from that fancy college if that's as much critical thinking that they are teaching nowadays.

You do not seem to sure of yourself. Keep trying though, this is a strong subject for such a weak mind.

This is not value of a thing, but your personal need or willingness to use it. By your logic insulin is valueless because you don't need it. Glasses are valueless because you are not shortsighted. Some people don't use cars. So, cars are valueless. Your logic is obviously nonsensical. Utility or value of a thing is not defined by personal preferences of people but by its ability to either, perform function for which it was designed or satisfy human wants or needs. In that sense only bitcoin is entirely valueless. It is just a byte in a memory and as such it can neither perform some function nor satisfy human wants or needs.

You are the poorly educated one. Instead of admitting, that Your initial logic was faulted, You keep digging Yourself deeper in, with even more broken logic. I wonder, how much more of it can You produce...

Just to use Your own words: if value is "a things ability to provide some utility." its is subjective already by Your own definition. Pair of classes wear good value for shortsighted, I dont give a shite. They are not valuable for me. Insulin pump has lifesaving value for diabetic, no value at all to me.

And Your own engine/value sample: some people value more powerful engines, some economic. Even this ability is not valued identically between individuals. How can You be, to not understand that??

It is mind blowing how you people are poorly educated. The value is NOT subjective. The value of a thing is its ability to provide some utility. The utility of an engine is its ability to perform function - to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. Now, is the ability to convert energy subjective? Of course, not. That is why if you ask 1000 different people whether a car engine can convert energy you won't get 1000 different answers.

The utility of a heart is its ability to pump blood to the organs and tissues of your body that need the oxygen and nutrients it carries. Now, is this ability subjective? Of course, not.

The utility of fiat money is its ability to provide its owner with assets of the banks or with property of borrowers. And this is also not subjective but legally enforceable, formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks, and confirmed every time when a borrower if forced to give his property, goods or services to fiat money owners in order to get funds for his loan payments.

Bitcoin on the other hand has no utility, as it is just a byte in a memory.

Well, you have just demonstrated that it is you whose understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.

First, FED doesn't create money. FED creates paper proof or certificate of money. Banks on the other hand create digital proof or certificate of money. So neither the FED nor the banks create money. Money is essentially created by borrowers, i.e. without the borrowers there would be no money, except commodity money - whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made.

In other words, when a bank creates numbers out of thin air by giving someone a loan, the bank didn't create money, but worthless symbols. Only when the borrower takes liability to return the loan and when this liability is secured by some form of collateral, only then "numbers" are put into circulation and only then money (fiat money) is created.
When FED (FOMC) buys government securities then the government is the borrower that takes "liability to return the loan". And this loan is secured by taxing power of the government.

Now, does that look like bitcoin to you?

Second, supply is a concept that describes the total amount of a specific good or service that is available to consumers, while demand is a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. In other words, the supply and demand for a good vary, while value of a good is stable irrespective of these two concepts. For e.g. usability and other properties of iPhone won't change if you are not willing to buy it. Thus, value is something that is inherent to a thing and what doesn't change with supply and demand. Price is what changes in that regard.  

I dis agree what the thread starter want to emphasize the three first example is way different from the fourth or the Bitcoin. As the first three represent physical ownership of things or items while Bitcoin is a digital currency and it only exist in internet world. The value could be created by people who patronizing an item or a coins and that is the law  of demand and supply. While there are lot of buyer than seller of Bitcoin it's price may continue to go up or vice versa.

On that principle all the money is essentially "zero value". Crypto, old school dollars whatever.

None of it is real because it is based on nothing of substance. Gold is locked away in the US vaults never to come out and is not big enough to back everyone's money. The Britsh Pound? Equated to one pound of gold once.

Now if you ask for your gold back from The USA you get invaded and deposed ... Gradafi, Sadam etc.

So, just because Bitcoin is a bit flimsy? It matter not.

As long as people honour it's value through services good etc ... Who cares?

Now, if they stop hooping it? That is a different story.