[ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] - page 82.

Vigil

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Quote from: zumzero on January 26, 2014, 10:36:02 AM

Quote from: Vigil on January 26, 2014, 10:18:43 AM

Perhaps it wouldn't make great sense these days to start a mining company with the sole intention of developing 55nm hardware given the time to market versus and the ever increasing difficulty factor, but surely it makes sense in ActM's situation as we managed to secure a team who will develop the full custom 28nm chip and additionally provide a stop gap solution with the 55nm. I think it is grossly unfair to speak like that Vigil and it reflects badly on you as an individual who can't seem to get over your anger. What a cheap dig that was.

Maybe if Ken could back up decisions with a little clarity then we wouldn't be wondering if it was a smart move or not - i.e. he could very easily release the figures that you seem to be so sure he has run...

If Ken is smart, then the boards and controllers for the 55nm chips will be the same as for the 28nm chips, then there is some worth in the 55nm chips, if only to pop the ActM cherry and debug the codes, boards, deployment plans etc...

That would make sense. I am just wondering how our chips, which will be coming in the two month time-frame, are going to somehow be significantly more cost-effective than BitMain and Bitfurry chips. The Antminers are already selling at a price that cannot ROI, if they could reduce the price a bit more, they would. How many more chips per order are going to be required in two+ months to sell a machine that ROIs and how much more expensive will that make each machine? That is kinda what I am getting at.

zumzero

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Quote from: minerpart on January 26, 2014, 10:43:27 AM

Ken seems to have bought the options on a taped out chip plus taken on two project-related expert engineers who will assist the 28nm scheme. Sounds good to me. Custom 55nm is still viable according to Ken and the two designers. So I will trust these three experts over Vigil any day.

+ project manager

zumzero

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@ wasubii What do you need to know in terms of the specs of the 55nm chip, understanding that you are unlikely to be able to factor in Intellihash due to its commercially sensitive nature?

minerpart

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IIIIII====II====IIIIII

Ken seems to have bought the options on a taped out chip plus taken on two project-related expert engineers who will assist the 28nm scheme. Sounds good to me. Custom 55nm is still viable according to Ken and the two designers. So I will trust these three experts over Vigil any day.

wasubii

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Quote from: zumzero on January 26, 2014, 10:36:02 AM

Quote from: Vigil on January 26, 2014, 10:18:43 AM

Quote from: wasubii on January 26, 2014, 10:15:46 AM

Quote from: Vigil on January 26, 2014, 10:12:16 AM

Quote from: zumzero on January 26, 2014, 10:03:20 AM

There are a lot of potential customers who, when browsing for a miner will consider; price, hashing rate and expected delivery time. Weather it's a 20nm, 28nm or a 55nm product, this will go unnoticed by many shoppers, but obviously not all. A lot of them will be as blissfully unaware of the power draw of their units as much as the price per wattage their energy suppliers are charging them whether that's in cents or dollars.

This is why targeting the budget sector with ActM's 55nm units has great potential imo.

minerpart, I'm sure you're already responding to kleeck's post, but I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the difficulties presumably ANY company will have in developing 20nm miners?

As long as they can be produced cheap enough to sell them at a budget price.

With Avalon, bitfury and bitmain (plus others?) all with paid for 55nm masks, they will keep selling as long as they can make a profit. By the time ActM has 55nm chips to sell in 6 months time, the wholesale value of them will be so low that the only thing to do with them is to mine.

I hope the costs of mounting them on boards and getting them mining will not be so high as to make them useless for mining too....

Probably, Ken didn't do the calculations before buying this IP.

Perhaps it wouldn't make great sense these days to start a mining company with the sole intention of developing 55nm hardware given the time to market versus and the ever increasing difficulty factor, but surely it makes sense in ActM's situation as we managed to secure a team who will develop the full custom 28nm chip and additionally provide a stop gap solution with the 55nm. I think it is grossly unfair to speak like that Vigil and it reflects badly on you as an individual who can't seem to get over your anger. What a cheap dig that was.

Maybe if Ken could back up decisions with a little clarity then we wouldn't be wondering if it was a smart move or not - i.e. he could very easily release the figures that you seem to be so sure he has run...

If Ken is smart, then the boards and controllers for the 55nm chips will be the same as for the 28nm chips, then there is some worth in the 55nm chips, if only to pop the ActM cherry and debug the codes, boards, deployment plans etc...

zumzero

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Quote

Probably, Ken didn't do the calculations before buying this IP.

Perhaps it wouldn't make great sense these days to start a mining company with the sole intention of developing 55nm hardware given the time to market versus the ever increasing difficulty factor, but surely it makes sense in ActM's situation as we managed to secure a team who will develop the full custom 28nm chip and additionally provide a stop gap solution with the 55nm. I think it is grossly unfair to speak like that Vigil and it reflects badly on you as an individual who can't seem to get over your anger. What a cheap dig that was.

minerpart

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IIIIII====II====IIIIII

I'm looking at KnC exactly because they are doing so well. They are our competition. If we can't analyse the competition we are a lost company.

Business is always relative - so we need to think about our place in the market.

kleeck think on this : NASA got men to the moon in 1969 - but they could not do that again today. They haven't been able replicate that journey with any of their tech for 40years.

You might say they haven't tried and it might not be a great analogy but its a loose idea. The point I'm trying to make us just because a company delivered on X promises does NOT mean they can deliver on Y.

20 nm ASIC tech is another return to the moon but this time meeting all the health and safety requirements of the 21st Century. In other words its a similar journey but far far more problematic.

Zum see my post and link from yesterday. Performance enhanced 20nm overall is an unproven concept. The benefits over top spec 28nn may not be able to be realised with the non-scalable components that need to be integrated into the reduced die.

knybe

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decentralize EVERYTHING...

Quote from: kleeck on January 26, 2014, 09:44:53 AM

Quote from: minerpart on January 26, 2014, 09:35:10 AM

And KnC has taken 28 million dollars in pre orders for a 20nm technology that is yet unproven and in fact they may never ship a miner with anywhere near the the specs they are claiming.

This market is awash with money. It is also awash with people who don't do any research before parting with their cash.

If we can get a good 55nm miner with good ROI it will definitely sell.

A 28nm top end machine for Q2 will have huge demand. KnC sold out 8 mill in a day - for a concept machine that may not even be achieveable.

Of all the mining companies who have failed to hit deadlines or worse you throw stones at KnC - the ONE company that has delivered on time and with relatively little issue. How do you think they raised $28M? They run a tight ship and get things done. KnC is THE competition in this space. If any mining company can put an engineering team together that can achieve a highly competitive 20nm device it's KnC.

I would not be playing them down or lead anyone else invested in the mining industry to do so. They are the top dog and are aiming to stay there. Let's be reasonable with our competitive analysis here.

That said, I agree that this year will still see a high demand for miners, even if KnC enters the first 20nm miner successfully.

That is why my equipment money has gone to KnC and not VMC.

Vigil

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Quote from: wasubii on January 26, 2014, 10:15:46 AM

Quote from: Vigil on January 26, 2014, 10:12:16 AM

Quote from: zumzero on January 26, 2014, 10:03:20 AM

There are a lot of potential customers who, when browsing for a miner will consider; price, hashing rate and expected delivery time. Weather it's a 20nm, 28nm or a 55nm product, this will go unnoticed by many shoppers, but obviously not all. A lot of them will be as blissfully unaware of the power draw of their units as much as the price per wattage their energy suppliers are charging them whether that's in cents or dollars.

This is why targeting the budget sector with ActM's 55nm units has great potential imo.

minerpart, I'm sure you're already responding to kleeck's post, but I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the difficulties presumably ANY company will have in developing 20nm miners?

As long as they can be produced cheap enough to sell them at a budget price.

With Avalon, bitfury and bitmain (plus others?) all with paid for 55nm masks, they will keep selling as long as they can make a profit. By the time ActM has 55nm chips to sell in 6 months time, the wholesale value of them will be so low that the only thing to do with them is to mine.

I hope the costs of mounting them on boards and getting them mining will not be so high as to make them useless for mining too....

Probably, Ken didn't do the calculations before buying this IP.

wasubii

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Activity: 448

Merit: 250

Quote from: Vigil on January 26, 2014, 10:12:16 AM

Quote from: zumzero on January 26, 2014, 10:03:20 AM

There are a lot of potential customers who, when browsing for a miner will consider; price, hashing rate and expected delivery time. Weather it's a 20nm, 28nm or a 55nm product, this will go unnoticed by many shoppers, but obviously not all. A lot of them will be as blissfully unaware of the power draw of their units as much as the price per wattage their energy suppliers are charging them whether that's in cents or dollars.

This is why targeting the budget sector with ActM's 55nm units has great potential imo.

minerpart, I'm sure you're already responding to kleeck's post, but I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the difficulties presumably ANY company will have in developing 20nm miners?

As long as they can be produced cheap enough to sell them at a budget price.

With Avalon, bitfury and bitmain (plus others?) all with paid for 55nm masks, they will keep selling as long as they can make a profit. By the time ActM has 55nm chips to sell in 6 months time, the wholesale value of them will be so low that the only thing to do with them is to mine.

I hope the costs of mounting them on boards and getting them mining will not be so high as to make them useless for mining too....

Vigil

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Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: zumzero on January 26, 2014, 10:03:20 AM

There are a lot of potential customers who, when browsing for a miner will consider; price, hashing rate and expected delivery time. Weather it's a 20nm, 28nm or a 55nm product, this will go unnoticed by many shoppers, but obviously not all. A lot of them will be as blissfully unaware of the power draw of their units as much as the price per wattage their energy suppliers are charging them whether that's in cents or dollars.

This is why targeting the budget sector with ActM's 55nm units has great potential imo.

minerpart, I'm sure you're already responding to kleeck's post, but I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the difficulties presumably ANY company will have in developing 20nm miners?

As long as they can be produced cheap enough to sell them at a budget price.

zumzero

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Activity: 602

Merit: 500

myBitcoin.Garden

There are a lot of potential customers who, when browsing for a miner will consider; price, hashing rate and expected delivery time. Weather it's a 20nm, 28nm or a 55nm product, this will go unnoticed by many shoppers, but obviously not all. A lot of them will be as blissfully unaware of the power draw of their units as much as the price per wattage their energy suppliers are charging them whether that's in cents or dollars.

This is why targeting the budget sector with ActM's 55nm units has great potential imo.

minerpart, I'm sure you're already responding to kleeck's post, but I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the difficulties presumably ANY company will have in developing 20nm miners?

kleeck

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https://karatcoin.co

Quote from: minerpart on January 26, 2014, 09:35:10 AM

And KnC has taken 28 million dollars in pre orders for a 20nm technology that is yet unproven and in fact they may never ship a miner with anywhere near the the specs they are claiming.

This market is awash with money. It is also awash with people who don't do any research before parting with their cash.

If we can get a good 55nm miner with good ROI it will definitely sell.

A 28nm top end machine for Q2 will have huge demand. KnC sold out 8 mill in a day - for a concept machine that may not even be achieveable.

Of all the mining companies who have failed to hit deadlines or worse you throw stones at KnC - the ONE company that has delivered on time and with relatively little issue. How do you think they raised $28M? They run a tight ship and get things done. KnC is THE competition in this space. If any mining company can put an engineering team together that can achieve a highly competitive 20nm device it's KnC.

I would not be playing them down or lead anyone else invested in the mining industry to do so. They are the top dog and are aiming to stay there. Let's be reasonable with our competitive analysis here.

That said, I agree that this year will still see a high demand for miners, even if KnC enters the first 20nm miner successfully.

minerpart

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IIIIII====II====IIIIII

And KnC has taken 28 million dollars in pre orders for a 20nm technology that is yet unproven and in fact they may never ship a miner with anywhere near the the specs they are claiming.

This market is awash with money. It is also awash with people who don't do any research before parting with their cash.

If we can get a good 55nm miner with good ROI it will definitely sell.

A 28nm top end machine for Q2 will have huge demand. KnC sold out 8 mill in a day - for a concept machine that may not even be achieveable.

zumzero

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myBitcoin.Garden

Brilliant. Those two need to understand that the customer is always right! Grin

Here's something to warm the cockles. It's from a Coindesk article on the Miami Conference...

Roger Ver on the Bitcoin Price and Mining

Day One of the conference was capped off by angel investor and bitcoin advocate Roger Ver and he did not disappoint. When asked about the future value of bitcoin, Ver was understandably bullish about price.

“It’s very, very clear that it is going to be higher than it is today,” he said.

Perhaps the most intriguing though that Ver conveyed was his opinion on mining. “It’s a market that has huge potential,” he said. Ver pegged bitcoin mining as a $1 billion industry given the roughly one million coins that will be rewarded over the next year.

“I don’t think anyone understands how big this industry will be,” he said.

VinceSamios

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Quote from: VinceSamios on January 24, 2014, 06:30:57 PM

Sorry I made a newb mistake (AT&T made the same mistake on MB usage on phone contracts if I remember correctly, although that doesn't excuse my brain fart.)

1.7 cents per KWH - this is the number I wanted. I also feel its accurate because LabRatMining is also getting the same leccy rate (yes leccy is the sparky zappy stuff) - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4699831

So with a full custom 28nm chip they are going to be one of the most, if not _the_ most, efficient chip on the market. And with such cheap leccy..... even if a number of competitors all:

1. manufacture their own full custom 28nm chips
2. sell their own chips as per 1
3. mine with their own chips as per 1
4. can also secure 1.7c/kwh leccy

ActM will still be equally profitable and therefore, unless people start mining at a loss (um no), will be profitable indefinitely.

It will take a number of manufacturer/retailer/miners with a chip much smaller than 28nm (20nm isn't a big enough difference) and leccy at-least half the price (not gonna happen) in order to make ActM unprofitable... this is a LONG LONG LONG way off, and would give ActM plenty of time to produce a more competitive chip and find cheaper leccy (although I doubt that's really going to happen)

Vince out.

Turns out the video got upvoted on reddit - hilarious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN9LZ3ojnxY

gjpminingco

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Co-Owner Of DCMCo-Op Mining Farm at 3.5 th/s

V.E GTFO no ones want to Hear you trolling anymore

P.S Your now on Ignore, and have been SLAPPED with the troll STFU stick to as the Nike slogan says " JUST DO IT " The STFU part that is

( thought i would clarify what part for ya since i know it would baffle ya a little. )

VolanicEruptor

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I bet all the activemining shares in existence aren't even worth $10,000 total.
are any of you waking up yet to the smell if this heaping pile of shit?

mainline

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