AI has beaten top poker professionals

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Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

At present computers lack originality and random variation. Famously computers cannot be trusted to be used in lottery schemes because its too easy to engineer or scheme the results they produce, many multi million dollar schemes result to natural variation in results. Ultimately computers only do what they are told, AI is very much behind in what it should be doing so Im not convinced they would do well in poker especially.

https://thewest.com.au/news/offbeat/how-computer-programmer-eddie-tipton-rigged-lotteries-around-the-us-for-a-2-million-score-ng-b88573886z

Computers could alter their choices but it would always end up predictable and not a safe way to earn an advantage. A good program could beat a poor player at least as a standing advantage as the person will learn, so its possible 1 program could be superior over another in some way I guess.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: BTCevo on January 30, 2018, 03:48:43 AM

Quote from: kryptorian on January 28, 2018, 09:31:08 AM

Quote from: BTCevo on January 28, 2018, 07:00:22 AM

Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

I don't have a lot of experience and profound knowledge into the operation of AI systems but they definitely don't work the way you describe. AI is not a robot, it doesn't have a specific algo or program that was coded into it. AI works pretty much like human brain does, and it should be taught first before it can do anything intelligible. But I understand what you mean and this is exactly what I'm asking. Could it have some moral value or judgment after it invents a trick or deceit? Or will it be yet another sequence of moves leading to a state which we humans proudly call victory?

But people can code it anyway with so many conditions and with this so many conditions and probability things that make the AI keep learning and get a lot of experience so they can win against pro players. Since when player can beat on AI? And I believe there is no way people want to compete with some AI in a big tournament, this will be meaningless because in the end they will lose it. I think it is not easy to win an AI with really complicated mode on it and I am sure pro players will be proud if they win it

If you think that AI is a sort of complicated program with millions or even billions if-then operators, then you are probably right, in a sense. It can in fact be represented in this manner at any given point in time when it operates. But what you are missing in the whole picture is that the code structure is not a result of some effort done by a big team of developers but what is called machine learning. The most important thing here is that "code" representing AI is dynamic and can be changed on the fly depending on the data received by it. You don't code AI like you code a regular program. Formally, AI is not even a computer, though it can simulated on a typical desktop computer but it will be devastatingly slow and "unintelligent".

BTCevo

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Quote from: kryptorian on January 28, 2018, 09:31:08 AM

Quote from: BTCevo on January 28, 2018, 07:00:22 AM

Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

I don't have a lot of experience and profound knowledge into the operation of AI systems but they definitely don't work the way you describe. AI is not a robot, it doesn't have a specific algo or program that was coded into it. AI works pretty much like human brain does, and it should be taught first before it can do anything intelligible. But I understand what you mean and this is exactly what I'm asking. Could it have some moral value or judgment after it invents a trick or deceit? Or will it be yet another sequence of moves leading to a state which we humans proudly call victory?

But people can code it anyway with so many conditions and with this so many conditions and probability things that make the AI keep learning and get a lot of experience so they can win against pro players. Since when player can beat on AI? And I believe there is no way people want to compete with some AI in a big tournament, this will be meaningless because in the end they will lose it. I think it is not easy to win an AI with really complicated mode on it and I am sure pro players will be proud if they win it

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Am sure the AI model has been feed with all sorts of scenarios and the best possible moves to play but i hope this wasn't based on one game

Quote from: jpcfan on January 29, 2018, 04:47:02 AM

the way to beat AI is do the opposite on how you bet

lol what is the probability of winning if this strategy is used

kryptorian

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Quote from: Erza on January 29, 2018, 10:14:55 AM

Quote from: jpcfan on January 29, 2018, 04:47:02 AM

the way to beat AI is do the opposite on how you bet

How are going to do this? Can give more explanation here? Because what I know, AI is only things that people made so if the programmer do not input really hard thing into AI, then there is nothing to be scared of. The only matter if pro programmer which can input many things for that bot and let him learn everything that pro players have, from their gesture and everything then it can't be beaten and poker games will be ended in really bad way

I'm sorry to say it but AI is not a bot, it is not a program either, conceptually. By the way, AI means artificial intelligence, and while it is definitely artificial, it is intelligence nonetheless. It does things which are not coded in it because you don't code it like you code a program. Essentially, it is a neural network where links between individual neurons are not set beforehand. The are set and removed when AI learns and it can learn pretty much constantly if it needs to adjust and adapt as in the poker tournament discussed here.

Erza

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Quote from: jpcfan on January 29, 2018, 04:47:02 AM

the way to beat AI is do the opposite on how you bet

How are going to do this? Can give more explanation here? Because what I know, AI is only things that people made so if the programmer do not input really hard thing into AI, then there is nothing to be scared of. The only matter if pro programmer which can input many things for that bot and let him learn everything that pro players have, from their gesture and everything then it can't be beaten and poker games will be ended in really bad way

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: mOgliE on January 28, 2018, 05:23:21 PM

So happily enough the game isn't solved here. It's not because the AI managed to fight one pro poker player that it means it's better than them.
Remember that poker is a chance based game. Even without any AI if the only move you make is to go all-in to each hand, you might have something like 25% chance to win even against a pro player...

Until we have more information for me the AI isn't a problem for the poker world Wink

It looks more like you don't quite believe in what you say yourself here. Rather, you are clutching at the idea that the game, poker in this case, is basically a chance based game, and AI can't overcome that. You are right, of course, if that comforts you, but as the real tournament has shown, there is not enough chance in poker to keep AI constrained and in the long term it still invariably crashes all human competition. Note that chances may equally work in its favor, while unlike humans it won't miss them.

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the way to beat AI is do the opposite on how you bet

kryptorian

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Quote from: buwaytress on January 28, 2018, 04:27:03 PM

Could AI be designed to still be ethical while being good in a game like poker (or even chess?). If one threw the ethics rulebook out, could not one deploy a similar AI to online poker rooms and just defeat reliably all human opponents?

@kryptorian: AI does work a little like you mention, in that it is like a human brain. It can only learn what it is taught, but there are becoming more and more capable of self-learning (or self teaching). But no, AI cannot yet determine moral or value judgment without predefined codes of conduct, at least not in practice - but EAD AI tries to create such that form values based on learning rather than a set universal code. The challenge is to get them to process context.

Huh, when I said about teaching I meant that AI needs some data source, and if we want to teach it something useful, we need to be particular about what we teach it. Otherwise, it can be taught whatever is being fed to it, so of course it is capable of self-learning as long as there is a source to learn from. Neural networks are intentionally built this way. I also don't think that AI can be made ethical unless we impose some strict rules on it like instinct of self-preservation. It may make AI unethical or even anti-ethical (a perfect killing machine) but it is not the same as being completely non-ethical, void of the very idea of ethics.

mOgliE

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Yeah... No...
I mean don't worry, the AI can only beat players in head to head games with limited poker.
At least last time I heard about their progress they managed to finalize the poker in those circumtances. To finish a game or to solve it is to manage to have all the possibilities of the game and to always chose the best option. Some games are easy to solve (like small games) but games like chesses are impossible to solve because of the far too many possibilities.

So happily enough the game isn't solved here. It's not because the AI managed to fight one pro poker player that it means it's better than them.
Remember that poker is a chance based game. Even without any AI if the only move you make is to go all-in to each hand, you might have something like 25% chance to win even against a pro player...

Until we have more information for me the AI isn't a problem for the poker world Wink

buwaytress

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Sorry am not quoting everyone, already a pretty long quote string! But I was drawn to the last few discussions on AI designed for deception - I wonder if there would be any conflict with some of the Ethically-Aligned Design (EAD) treaties already drawn up by organisations like IEEE. I know there are already steps towards advocating compliance within medical fields for example, though of course none of this has resulted in regulations.

Could AI be designed to still be ethical while being good in a game like poker (or even chess?). If one threw the ethics rulebook out, could not one deploy a similar AI to online poker rooms and just defeat reliably all human opponents?

@kryptorian: AI does work a little like you mention, in that it is like a human brain. It can only learn what it is taught, but there are becoming more and more capable of self-learning (or self teaching). But no, AI cannot yet determine moral or value judgment without predefined codes of conduct, at least not in practice - but EAD AI tries to create such that form values based on learning rather than a set universal code. The challenge is to get them to process context.

lite

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Quote from: kryptorian on January 28, 2018, 09:31:08 AM

Quote from: BTCevo on January 28, 2018, 07:00:22 AM

Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

I don't have a lot of experience and profound knowledge into the operation of AI systems but they definitely don't work the way you describe. AI is not a robot, it doesn't have a specific algo or program that was coded into it. AI works pretty much like human brain does, and it should be taught first before it can do anything intelligible. But I understand what you mean and this is exactly what I'm asking. Could it have some moral value or judgment after it invents a trick or deceit? Or will it be yet another sequence of moves leading to a state which we humans proudly call victory?

The way i see it, every ai will be trained with different sets of data or learn for different purposes, so it probably won't have any moral values if it's trained/learn to be perfect at certain job, it will try it's best to be good at it.

kryptorian

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Quote from: BTCevo on January 28, 2018, 07:00:22 AM

Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

I don't have a lot of experience and profound knowledge into the operation of AI systems but they definitely don't work the way you describe. AI is not a robot, it doesn't have a specific algo or program that was coded into it. AI works pretty much like human brain does, and it should be taught first before it can do anything intelligible. But I understand what you mean and this is exactly what I'm asking. Could it have some moral value or judgment after it invents a trick or deceit? Or will it be yet another sequence of moves leading to a state which we humans proudly call victory?

BTCevo

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Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

cryptotricks

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I have recently read a news when two AI robots started talking on their own, then the company (Facebook) had to shut it down. This is kind of alarming.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: boboking on January 26, 2018, 11:00:22 PM

Quote from: cryptotricks on January 26, 2018, 10:36:00 AM

AI's will rule the world someday.

Like the Matrix movie? I am not discounting the fact that there is a possibility of this happening but with our current AI and robotics technology today this will be in the very far future.

For the OP, I am not surprised that AI was able to beat this Pro poker players as most poker players usually read body movements and of course AI will not show that. AI will always be logical and compute the probability of them winning the hand.

Frankly, I'm not very familiar with poker and especially with its "show-off" part, but what about online poker then? As far as I know, there is no way you can reveal your movements and facial expressions to your opponent unless you are playing via skype and making faces at them. So in online poker there is a level playing field for both AI and human players. What prevents human beings to be as logical as the machine playing against them?

boboking

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Quote from: cryptotricks on January 26, 2018, 10:36:00 AM

AI's will rule the world someday.

Like the Matrix movie? I am not discounting the fact that there is a possibility of this happening but with our current AI and robotics technology today this will be in the very far future.

For the OP, I am not surprised that AI was able to beat this Pro poker players as most poker players usually read body movements and of course AI will not show that. AI will always be logical and compute the probability of them winning the hand.

Lionidas

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Quote from: Parodium on December 19, 2017, 05:06:45 AM

I've never heard of any of these professionals, I want to see it beat Phil Ivey and Tom Dwan.

There was that professional poker player that became famous with his betting bitcoins I believe.
He is on youtube and twitter all the time.
He is the one with a beard and has alot of near naked women all over him in these videos so he must be still winning. Wink

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: kryptorian on January 26, 2018, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human being are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I think we are still very far from that. Really, how do you imagine one computer deceiving another? If we take chess as an example, you can sacrifice a piece with the objective of gaining advantage and winning the game later. In my view, there's no deceit, this is only our interpretation of some moves.

Nevertheless, if we speak about an advanced AI, or superintelligent AI, it may ultimately develop some features or qualities that we could consider as trickery or cunning. Whether it will be able to consider them as such itself remains to be seen though.

Quote from: cryptotricks on January 26, 2018, 10:36:00 AM

AI's will rule the world someday.

We may not live up to that. And it may in fact turn out to be good.

cryptotricks

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AI's will rule the world someday.

Topic: AI has beaten top poker professionals (Read 915 times)