AI has beaten top poker professionals - page 2.

kryptorian

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Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

cryptotricks

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Not a nice news.

michkima

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Quote from: wattson on January 25, 2018, 11:12:40 AM

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

For sure this is just for an online kind of poker, so poker faces and bluffing would be different if it is online. It is quite a lot easier to determine the play style of a player that is online since the AI just needs a few games before it would be able to know the play style of its opponent. What that means is that if it knows how you play then it would be able to determine what are your tendencies. The thing is, it can analysis indeed the millions of hands it has in its data base and base its decision from there. there is really no new player style so I guess it would just depend on how quick an AI will do a read and decide what kind of player it is playing against.

wattson

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I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: Cryptchain on January 25, 2018, 08:45:57 AM

Quote from: aslamnur28 on December 26, 2017, 07:39:27 AM

Yeah , AI slowly beats people in everything . Will they conquer the world too ?

The online world, yeah. Maybe then, we'll go back to a simple life haha!

AI will undoubtedly follow you no matter where you go or what you are going to do until it gets you. Yeah, it may take some time until it reads looks and uses its own visual tricks and facial expressions (don't ask me what it would look like), but we will get there eventually, or rather, it will get there. In fact, it may require a lot of time and major break-throughs in the field but we will be there even if we have to build a copycat of entire human brain. Or more than that.

Cryptchain

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Quote from: BTCevo on December 26, 2017, 01:14:08 AM

As long as you can predict move on AI, I do not think that it will be difficult thing to do. But the problem here is how are we going to predict it if many inputs for the AI including face detector, how to react if A using this kind of face, what move should the AI takes. I do not think that it is really easy to know that it is AI or not if the bot is pro like libratus

I think tells are overrated on poker. IA don't care about tells. IA care about position, stack, ranges, odds, blockers, sizings, etc.

Cryptchain

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Quote from: aslamnur28 on December 26, 2017, 07:39:27 AM

Yeah , AI slowly beats people in everything . Will they conquer the world too ?

The online world, yeah. Maybe then, we'll go back to a simple life haha!

aslamnur28

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Yeah , AI slowly beats people in everything . Will they conquer the world too ?

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: arisatox on December 25, 2017, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Hell-raiser on December 25, 2017, 02:52:04 AM

Quote from: MadZ on December 24, 2017, 06:11:40 PM

Perhaps I missed it in the article, but these hands were played online, not live, right?

Also, I think it's pretty interesting that it wasn't until the 30k hand mark that the AI started to become consistently profitable, and it wasn't until 80k hands played that this profitably was statistically greater than 0. I think this suggests that the AI's ability to win isn't from some sort fundamentally better strategy against all opppnents, rather, its improved ability to learn from opponents and exploit them over a large sample size. This bot can't just sit down at a random online table and start crushing, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it may well be so for the first time, but after a few months of continuous playing the AI should be able to squash all competition at once, at the first game. It is basically the same with chess, though AI doesn't seem to be used there so much. Chess bots use, for example, opening and endgame databases so they don't need to play every game from a cold start, so to speak. This roughly corresponds to the level of AI "expertise" in playing poker acquired after a number of games.

This is what we humans call experience.

It can do well as a tight player setup but people bluff and it has to learn how each individual plays before doing well against them. Chess is all open and public, while poker is mostly hidden and is about tells, so they're two different things.

It may be so in a face-to-face game, where physical presence is required, but poker is played mostly online these days, as many other games, for that matter. So how are you going to bluff in such conditions? Further, it actually cuts both ways. Just as you can say that players can get advantage by reading their opponents' facial expressions, there is no "face" to read in AI. While the AI can still do that.

Are you sure you will be able to deceive it?

BTCevo

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Quote from: MadZ on December 25, 2017, 01:25:10 PM

Quote from: Hell-raiser on December 25, 2017, 02:52:04 AM

Quote from: MadZ on December 24, 2017, 06:11:40 PM

Perhaps I missed it in the article, but these hands were played online, not live, right?

Also, I think it's pretty interesting that it wasn't until the 30k hand mark that the AI started to become consistently profitable, and it wasn't until 80k hands played that this profitably was statistically greater than 0. I think this suggests that the AI's ability to win isn't from some sort fundamentally better strategy against all opppnents, rather, its improved ability to learn from opponents and exploit them over a large sample size. This bot can't just sit down at a random online table and start crushing, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it may well be so for the first time, but after a few months of continuous playing the AI should be able to squash all competition at once, at the first game. It is basically the same with chess, though AI doesn't seem to be used there so much. Chess bots use, for example, opening and endgame databases so they don't need to play every game from a cold start, so to speak. This roughly corresponds to the level of AI "expertise" in playing poker acquired after a number of games.

This is what we humans call experience.

True, it seems from the article that the AI also improved in performance against other AI over time. One thing I will say is that I'm sure the players' knowledge that they were playing against an AI probably had some influence on their playstyle. Whether that means playing tighter or more aggressively, I'm not sure, but I know I'd play differently against an AI than a human opponent (probably more aggressively, since you have much less fold equity against bad players who will call with marginal hands, and I doubt an AI would do this). Regardless, I wonder if the results would be the same if players were unaware their opponent wasn't human.

As long as you can predict move on AI, I do not think that it will be difficult thing to do. But the problem here is how are we going to predict it if many inputs for the AI including face detector, how to react if A using this kind of face, what move should the AI takes. I do not think that it is really easy to know that it is AI or not if the bot is pro like libratus

MadZ

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Quote from: Hell-raiser on December 25, 2017, 02:52:04 AM

Quote from: MadZ on December 24, 2017, 06:11:40 PM

Perhaps I missed it in the article, but these hands were played online, not live, right?

Also, I think it's pretty interesting that it wasn't until the 30k hand mark that the AI started to become consistently profitable, and it wasn't until 80k hands played that this profitably was statistically greater than 0. I think this suggests that the AI's ability to win isn't from some sort fundamentally better strategy against all opppnents, rather, its improved ability to learn from opponents and exploit them over a large sample size. This bot can't just sit down at a random online table and start crushing, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it may well be so for the first time, but after a few months of continuous playing the AI should be able to squash all competition at once, at the first game. It is basically the same with chess, though AI doesn't seem to be used there so much. Chess bots use, for example, opening and endgame databases so they don't need to play every game from a cold start, so to speak. This roughly corresponds to the level of AI "expertise" in playing poker acquired after a number of games.

This is what we humans call experience.

True, it seems from the article that the AI also improved in performance against other AI over time. One thing I will say is that I'm sure the players' knowledge that they were playing against an AI probably had some influence on their playstyle. Whether that means playing tighter or more aggressively, I'm not sure, but I know I'd play differently against an AI than a human opponent (probably more aggressively, since you have much less fold equity against bad players who will call with marginal hands, and I doubt an AI would do this). Regardless, I wonder if the results would be the same if players were unaware their opponent wasn't human.

arisatox

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Quote from: Hell-raiser on December 25, 2017, 02:52:04 AM

Quote from: MadZ on December 24, 2017, 06:11:40 PM

Perhaps I missed it in the article, but these hands were played online, not live, right?

Also, I think it's pretty interesting that it wasn't until the 30k hand mark that the AI started to become consistently profitable, and it wasn't until 80k hands played that this profitably was statistically greater than 0. I think this suggests that the AI's ability to win isn't from some sort fundamentally better strategy against all opppnents, rather, its improved ability to learn from opponents and exploit them over a large sample size. This bot can't just sit down at a random online table and start crushing, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it may well be so for the first time, but after a few months of continuous playing the AI should be able to squash all competition at once, at the first game. It is basically the same with chess, though AI doesn't seem to be used there so much. Chess bots use, for example, opening and endgame databases so they don't need to play every game from a cold start, so to speak. This roughly corresponds to the level of AI "expertise" in playing poker acquired after a number of games.

This is what we humans call experience.

It can do well as a tight player setup but people bluff and it has to learn how each individual plays before doing well against them. Chess is all open and public, while poker is mostly hidden and is about tells, so they're two different things.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: MadZ on December 24, 2017, 06:11:40 PM

Perhaps I missed it in the article, but these hands were played online, not live, right?

Also, I think it's pretty interesting that it wasn't until the 30k hand mark that the AI started to become consistently profitable, and it wasn't until 80k hands played that this profitably was statistically greater than 0. I think this suggests that the AI's ability to win isn't from some sort fundamentally better strategy against all opppnents, rather, its improved ability to learn from opponents and exploit them over a large sample size. This bot can't just sit down at a random online table and start crushing, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it may well be so for the first time, but after a few months of continuous playing the AI should be able to squash all competition at once, at the first game. It is basically the same with chess, though AI doesn't seem to be used there so much. Chess bots use, for example, opening and endgame databases so they don't need to play every game from a cold start, so to speak. This roughly corresponds to the level of AI "expertise" in playing poker acquired after a number of games.

This is what we humans call experience.

MadZ

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Perhaps I missed it in the article, but these hands were played online, not live, right?

Also, I think it's pretty interesting that it wasn't until the 30k hand mark that the AI started to become consistently profitable, and it wasn't until 80k hands played that this profitably was statistically greater than 0. I think this suggests that the AI's ability to win isn't from some sort fundamentally better strategy against all opppnents, rather, its improved ability to learn from opponents and exploit them over a large sample size. This bot can't just sit down at a random online table and start crushing, which is a good thing.

arisatox

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Quote from: yojodojo21 on December 24, 2017, 11:48:42 AM

In short human themselves produce an AI to defeat something that is undefeatable but in other words it's human itself who defeat the opponents since they are the creator of AI. Nothing change about that game who always win is the poker devs and admins at all. But all Ina all money has a big role to human beings that is why it is circulated into humanity. Great, Cheers!

The big difference here is that people get tired and make mistakes, while computers will always do exactly what they are told. Someone who has a lot of poker skill can program it to do better than they could because of going on tilt, being tired, being rushed, distracted, and other things.

yojodojo21

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In short human themselves produce an AI to defeat something that is undefeatable but in other words it's human itself who defeat the opponents since they are the creator of AI. Nothing change about that game who always win is the poker devs and admins at all. But all Ina all money has a big role to human beings that is why it is circulated into humanity. Great, Cheers!

Don Pedro Dinero

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Bots have been known in online poker for long, but it was easy to exploit their weaknesses using stats programs as Holdem Manager or Poker Traker (legal programs). Anyway, bots are banned, and it is difficult to see one of them in the major sites.

This is different, though, but I’m not surprised. AI will change the world as we know it, and this is just a small part of it. It’s just been tested for HU but as those machines keep learning, I think they will soon beat 6-max or 9-max tables. However, I’m not so sure about other formats, like MTTs, where there is high variance.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: icanscript on December 24, 2017, 12:57:07 AM

Quote from: DARKANGEL6415 on December 23, 2017, 10:54:44 AM

This should basically not be a surprise to anyone in this day in age. I remember when they had the computer go up against the chess world champion player. I remember how mad i was when i lost $500 because i told myself there was no way a computer would win. Granted this was a few years ago so computers was not as good as they are nowadays.

Yes, it is very reckless not to believe in new technologies. AI does a better job than man. In computer logic there are no mistakes. Cold calculation wins the human intellect.

Yes, but AI is not about cold calculations. In fact, it is not about calculations at all because it is about what is called fuzzy logic and machine learning. The former is about dealing with the concept of partial truth, which defies "cold calculations", while the latter is about adapting to a changing environment. These two factors are what makes AI so formidable up to a point of being frightening.

icanscript

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Quote from: DARKANGEL6415 on December 23, 2017, 10:54:44 AM

This should basically not be a surprise to anyone in this day in age. I remember when they had the computer go up against the chess world champion player. I remember how mad i was when i lost $500 because i told myself there was no way a computer would win. Granted this was a few years ago so computers was not as good as they are nowadays.

Yes, it is very reckless not to believe in new technologies. AI does a better job than man. In computer logic there are no mistakes. Cold calculation wins the human intellect.

DARKANGEL6415

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This should basically not be a surprise to anyone in this day in age. I remember when they had the computer go up against the chess world champion player. I remember how mad i was when i lost $500 because i told myself there was no way a computer would win. Granted this was a few years ago so computers was not as good as they are nowadays.

Topic: AI has beaten top poker professionals - page 2. (Read 904 times)