Topic: Altcoins are a prisoner's dilemma and not possible to beat Bitcoin - page 3. (Read 4457 times)

I've never understood this line of reasoning. If an altcoin passes BTC in marketcap, it, by definition, *won't* be some random altcoin, it'll be a legit altcoin. You seem to be begging the question by describing it as a "random turdcoin" passing or even getting close to Bitcoin. If it passes Bitcoin it'll be the rare, legitimate altcoin, not some random one -- one that actually offers something valuable that Bitcoin isn't offering.

So, it actually *wouldn't* mean that at any time this new coin could *just as easily* be overthrown and go to zero, because it *wouldn't* be easy for an altcoin to pass Bitcoin, and, if one does, it could very well be based on something fundamental as to *why* it passes Bitcoin, and Bitcoin also wouldn't necessarily have to go to zero in the process.

Your counter-example is entirely broken.

That was satire because many people were accusing me of being BCX back when he threatened to attack Monero and I tried to figure out if there was a technical hole to attack from.

My technical investigation is how I first realized that Cryptonote is theoretically susceptible to combinatorial unmasking (and especially from overlapping rings).

The BCX incident is one I would like to forget. I was sincere but it didn't really reflect well on me that BCX was apparently lying so he could short Monero (or that is the conjecture). I did not short Monero.

That's not quite true though is it? Here's the latest on uses of ethereum:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ethereum-powered-augur-brings-its-beta-microsoft-azures-blockchain-cloud-1549630

Bitcoin might have been decentralised in the past, but now the mining is controlled by about seven Chinese guys who can do deals in a room, with the added vulnerability of being behind a firewall and under an authoritarian govt that cracks down on anyone who challenges them.

True decentralisation would be mining spread evenly around the world, so if some of them got taken out, the others would survive and continue. PoS at least means that the staking wallets are decentralised, which is an improvement on what has happened to BTC.

Maybe his point was that the only useful thing Ethereum project has produced is the logo. 

TPTB, I saw on one of your closed accounts that you are BCX.  Is this true?  The original BCX?  Thx.

Any good programmer who has remained productive and not tried hard to screw up his life (and health), has more money than he really needs.

The important goal to such a person should be to work on something interesting and which can give back to society happiness, creativity, jobs, productivity, and diversity.

This is the reason I am not interested to create a crypto currency that has no adoption being merely a ticker symbol and marketing for inciting greater fool theory gambling.

Of course the speculators will find a way to get at my coin if I launch one. And they will serve a free market role. I can't stop the free market. The difference is I plan to have significant user adoption which must exist BEFORE YOU DISCOVER THE TOKEN, so that it is the real deal in terms of a for-use token. And I will make no promotions nor give any speculators any reason to think they should base their expectations for gains on any actions of any entity or developers. Because I am not creating investment securities. I am creating a social network and a token for use on that social network (and beyond). And you all have confirmed that speculators aren't basing their expectations for gains on any fundamentals thus efforts of the developers. Instead they are basing their expectations on promotion and hype. Since I won't be doing promotion or hype targeted to investors of a crypto currency, they won't be basing their expectations on any particular promotion or hype. Their resultant free market speculation is based on their assumptions about the value of for-use tokens of the sort I want to create. I will not promote nor promise any one any gains. The for-use tokens will exist to facilitate microtransactions on the social network.

I will make no effort to get my token listed on any centralized exchanges and I am happy if it takes as long as possible before being listed on a centralized exchange. I am working on decentralized exchange.

Making it more difficult for get-rich-in-a-week speculators is a goal of mine. Long-term HODLers will find their way to accumulate.

P.S. I have been working on the logo for the new 6 letter domain name for the social network. I am very pleased with the name I thought of and also after some horrible logo designs were submitted to me, I sketched my own on paper and I think it is quite good. Now waiting for a professional graphic designer to complete the final logo and they also confirmed my latest sketch is good. My logo is superior to Ethereum's and I am only spending $200 (plus my time), not $18 million.

Everyone here wants profit in the form of fiat. They don't give a shit about being on some bleedin' edge of tech or any some such nonsense. This scene is gambling, 100%. From the lowliest shitcoin to bitcoin, the name of the game is making MONEY. Taking money from the stupid and giving it to the assholes.
Damn, sounds like life for the past many thousands of years to me.

No.

The PoW doesn't need to be done on the payer's hardware. Payer (or payee) can pay a miner to do the PoW. The decentralized control (of which chain to mine on and which validators to trust & statistically verify) still resides with those paying for the PoW.

I do put a lot of effort into making a new hash that can't be optimized well on ASICs. So that everyone can get near equal access to efficient hardware. I think I have improved on Cryptonote's hash function. I wish I had more time to evaluate tromp's and other asymmetric hash functions (should probably buy tromp a Kill-A-Watt meter).


If I succeed on marketing and implementation, the people adopting and mining the coin won't have any idea about crypto currency nor mining. This is a very big challenge and I don't want anyone to expect anything. The chance of failure is much greater than the chance of success. But I am not asking any of you to take the risk with me. Hopefully if by the time you hear about it, it is because it will already be successful and it spread by word-of-mouth back to the forum.


By that time, it won't help Wolf, because the hashrate and unprofitability will be too great. If you are going to attack, you have to do it early near launch.

The flaw in my design, is the network doesn't spend more on security than makes sense for the value of the transactions on the network. So it requires the transactions to scale up significantly in order to have high security. A predominately HODL-er coin can't use my design. Thus Bitcoin could not use my design.

Also my design centralizes validation. But that is okay because every crypto currency ends up with centralized validation and control, as it scales up. At least my design keeps the control decentralized at any scale of transactions.


The NSA and the Deep State who created Bitcoin wanted a centralizing algorithm. They wanted the powerlaw distribution of wealth to be in control. Never would they actually want one-computer, one-vote. They put propaganda like that in the Bitcoin white paper to fool us.

Is the entire thing still hinged on the fact that it fails if the algo becomes optimized by over 2x speedup on specialized hardware to create identical pool centralization?  Even if you believe it's possible to create such a thing, the fact that you need to launch the coin and have it exist for years before the answer is readily apparent makes it a very unattractive target for adoption, because at any time the fundamentals can just completely disappear when some guy like Wolf slightly optimizes the hashing function...

In another thread, both Smooth and I seemed to feel this more traditional PoW-mail, send your own transactions approach would be the Occam's Razor solution for Satoshi and already would have been explored if it was viable.  Instead, Bitcoin went the more Rube Goldberg approach because the other methods weren't deemed feasible.

I believe Satoshi's original intention was to return control of money to the people and remove control from the Governments, which is why I believed he worked so hard at hiding his real identity. But never met the man , so can't be 100% certain of that.

I do agree with you that endless IPOs are just a way to scam people, but freedom of choice means letting the stupid commit dumb acts as long as they don't cause physical harm to another. You would think after 2 or 3 IPO scams , they would get a clue.

ZEIT is
- Decentralized
- Open Source
- I prefer to think of it as a Virtual Resource instead of a Currency

Exchanges are a necessary requirement, similar to a marketplace , where people trade goods and services, it also helps set the trading value of an item.
But if you have an idea of a way to replace the exchanges, I am more than open to hear it.  

 

Who said it mattered to Satoshi in the long run if it ended up like that later ?
What makes you think he never considered the idea that ASICS could and WOULD be made ? ..eventually.
I love how everyone goes nuts assuming what Satoshi wanted / planned / thought etc

I don't care..

Look at Prime Coin's launch..

Does it matter if the 2nd half of the coins distribution is dominated by a hardware arms race ?
Would it better for ME to have every BTC ever made at once on launch ?

The monetary amount is suppose to be added over time ?
Not dropped on the world all at once ?

ETH comes out and some guy name "John Smith" has all of the coins..
Handed to Poloniex who operates in secrecy as a Centralized Govt cooperated entity who collects user ID's
Somehow doing that is BETTER in your minds ?

Exchanges should be closed.. ALL of them
The side show of trading is too much of a self destructive diversion from the real goal.. Currency Adoption
It could be that the inherent way in which this shit works is doomed to failure.
No matter what effort gets pushed forward it gets warped into a greedy free for all for digital token trading profits.

I have thought the most out of ways to get a currency out and used with out exchange trading.
Shit heads on Poloniex (for example) desperately trying to profit from some shitty ass IPO coin
are NOT helping anything in Crypto.. quite the opposite they are killing and maybe making it nearly impossible
for Crypto (in a similar form as it is now) to ever be accepted by the main stream public.

You guys all forgot what it's suppose to be about.
- Decentralized
- Open Source
- Currency

When you launch another IPO digital token (the 7,000th) and yeah there is THAT many !
And its' primary use in REALITY ends up being 95% a token used to trade on Centralized security risk exchanges
i'd say we failed miserably.
? See how that is a circular cycle ?
Who benefits ? Centralized exchanges and the coin dev's who cut themselvs in and the greedy traders.
Does ANY of that bullshit bring us closer to world wide digital currency adoption
and the replacement of Fiat ?

Either your shitty ass Altcoin beats Bitcoin and replaces Fiat or it's a fucking failure.

I say cut off the little circle of greedy idiot traders.. cut them away from the scene and let them float off like an island.
Fuck 'em all ..we don't need them ..they are a drain to Crypto and bring nothing positive.
STOP PANDERING TO THEM.

Either you agree with what i just said ? ..OR..
you think Satoshi's intention was nothing more than to Launch a digital pyramid scheme for profit.

Point of Contention,
In Proof of Work the coin's value really has no value as it has no reproductive capability built in. The Value is in the ASICS that produce the coin and allow it to function,
time has proven , and their value decreases every 2 weeks. As the small time productions have discovered , it is no longer affordable to be in an ASICS arms race.
At some point only 1 or 2 will control the asics, due to ASICS & Electricity costs.

Satoshi idea only worked before ASICS enter the scene, he did not foresee that, and that forever destroyed the idea of anyone being able to mine and reproduce his coin.
Proof of Stake fixes that PoW flaw, by placing the value of the ASICS inside the coin itself.
So all of the millions that get wasted on hardware , that is outdated in a year, flow into a coin that can be turned on every 20 days for a few hours and generate profit.

In Proof of Stake with a low stake rate, selling the Coins as Profit decreases your ability to make more, but can earn you profit on a continuous basis as long as managed property . You don't have to buy new hardware every year to get the same amount of Profit, in fact the more you hold the more Valuable you make the coin.
Another Reason for the Knights was to keep the amount of ZEIT split up , so that a handful never control the entire amount.

And in your point , the Rich get richer, is because a handful control the entire amount, but once they control it all and the poor and middle class have very little access to it,  they cause what we see in the US now,
The Poor will move to an Alternative ways of barter , and ignore the US$ since they have no real access to it and that also decreases the Velocity of Money.
example:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

What the rich forget is their wealth is built on the poor and middle class like a Pyramid.

Rich Hoard the wealth as they are currently doing,
The Poor & the Middle class leave the system entirely finding alternatives means or currency to barter.
Which Now changes the Pyramid.


Some examples, The Car Manufacturers prices are so high , Poor people at best get a used car, next choice a Mope-head, or ride the bus and final choices
riding a bicycle or walking. This destroys money velocity , no car , no car insurance, no gas needed, which also hurts insurance companies , auto repair shops, and oil companies plus anyone that performs a support service for these companies.
And what all of these companies have in common , is they cut jobs which decrease the middle class & poor support of the rich even more, it is a downward spiral,
that results in the end of a FIAT currency, which is what we are seeing now.
NIRP (Negative Interest Rate Policy) will be their last failed attempt to save a dying FIAT system.

 

FYI:
The whole problem with the RICH is they act like a Parasite on a Host Body,
when they become too dominant of a host the host will die, and the rich along with it.
Farming is a good example, in the old days you used manure and tilled in grasses and wood ashes into the soil which fed the micro organisms & earth worms and this would increase the soil's fertility so your plants would be abundant.
Now they dump the cheapest of N P K only , and the soil is depleted of the micro nutrients which make healthy plants, which is why their input costs cause so many farmers to become bankrupt and your produce is less healthy every year.
Which less nutrients makes people sicker and frailer , I remember 65 years olds racing 8 and 9 years olds , just playing around.
Now a days most 40 years old people can't even run, the current parasitical system is on the verge of collapse and it is killing people we all care about in the process.      

FYI:
On your Point :
The algo i think was like steam from heated water.
The money flow up's and ends up in the rich peoples hands.
Problem is they hold it,
the Knights will be returning it thru Charity , Tithing , and in paying workers to achieve making this world into a better place and in other ways.
Therefore keeping the cycle moving until the Knights are no longer needed and the system maintains itself.

Quantity of stored wealth is not the point of the Knowledge Age. The point is the degrees-of-freedom in the velocity of money.

You all are barking up the wrong tree.

I will teach you how it is done.

woah woah woah spoeder, 90% is high praise coming from you.

ty for link havent seen that one yet

@kiklo
There is nor will there ever be a fair system.
I seen a science show that outlined the scientific mathematical formula that was found
There is an algo or mathematical equation to Money.
IT ALWAYS ENDS UP BELONGING TO THE RICH

The algo i think was like steam from heated water.
The money flow up's and ends up in the rich peoples hands..
This is witnessed in every aspect of humanity in our entire history in every civilization.
This is a FACT !

So that does in fact apply to crypto.. YOU WILL BE PARTED WITH YOUR MONEY IF YOU KEEP TRADING.

Stats right now show the Distribution of money crystal clear.. Google it !

Why am i saying this to YOU ?

Proof of work..
The desire to "game" the system for an advantage is and always will be present.
Satoshi came up with the BEST way to solve this problem so far.
What came later is not an improvement (IPO's or IPO's+ POS)
That is regression and a massive step backwards from the fundamental equality of POW.

When CPU miners were out for Prime Coin or Quark all guys did is go an rent CPU server farms.
So far we are not working on the problems that NEED to be addressed.. such as Distribution.
Launching an IPO then meddling with it after the fact is no proper solution
and ends up being worse that what Satoshi set up for us.

And lets make this perfectly clear here boys & girls..
Just because you WANT to keep launching thousands of new coins (instead of working on an existing one)
AND you can't think of a better way to make the Initial distribution work
doesn't mean you all should just say fuck it.. let's launch an IPO.
Get it ?
You guys are saying we -HAVE- to make another coin see we have no choice..
Actually you do have a choice.. don't make another coin until you can improve on POW !

And NO you don't NEED to make another coin either. (no meaningful new feature was ever made)
All of you want another coin so you can work on it and quit your day job.
A product or service's existence SHOULD hinge entirely on it's NEED !
There is no reason to provide a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Further more i have made many points today on why IPO's are bad but here is yet ANOTHER one..
They were added here with techno jargon like "White Paper" trying to use pro stock terms.
When that Stock market traders got wind of crypto they brought that bullshit with them here.
Only problem is.. it does not apply to Crypto.
You all can't keep crying some altcoin is like a stock.
The point of these are suppose to be a currency not a stock.
If the currency is a failure (no adoption / usage) then it winds up being a digital pyramid scheme !
Most of you prob were not even alive when the infamous water filter scam was going around in the 80's
I was and remember it clearly.. most of you are kids that know sweet fuck all but come here and run your mouth.
Unless you did research like i have on Pyramid / Ponzi schemes then you don't know anything about them.
If all you know about them is from learning here your an ignorant Crypto trader.
Leave the Bitcointalk scam bubble and get educated in the REAL WORLD !

---

And after that last paragraph i still did not make my planned point (i found another one while typing LOL)
Which is..
IPO / ICO coins can not be legit or even considered more secure or less exploitable because of one real simple fact.
This is NOT the stock market !
This is a FREE MARKET ..with NO laws.
I should not have to explain that further it speaks for itself..

Do you cheerleaders here grasp how many players in crypto running coins or exchanges or pump groups or forums etc
Would be in jail if we had the same laws as the Stock exchange ?
Martha Stewart an old lady that baked pies on TV did jail time for "Insider Trading"
Now imagine how many guys here deserve to be in jail !

An IPO is sketchy and often sleazy enough as it is in the REAL stock market
..then take away the laws that are applied by the SEC and the FBI etc and what do we have ?
Bitcointalk Scam IPO central  

There is a reason why the SEC issued a warning about Crypto coins calling them scams.. 90% are !
I was doing research early this year when i stumbled onto their press release by accident (same day it was posted)
I then posted it in the Bitcoin section where everyone said it was good news AHAHHAHAHHA
It even mentioned an unnamed forum which was totally obvious they meant Bitcointalk.
Read it yourselves.. https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_virtualcurrencies.pdf (Issued Jan 4th 2016)

EDIT:
TPTB_need_war
I feel your frustration and i doubt we agree on all things either but i would rather
have us all talk like adults and work on it over time than have childish trolling.
I see the conflict as a method of us all refining the crypto scene over time..
Each input from all of you collectively makes it what it is.
And having some of the smarter guys leave is a loss for us collectively.
@TPTB_need_war, whether i agree with you on stuff or not i KNOW you are very smart and hope you stay

This doesn't apply to my coin under development, because I eliminate mining-for-profit, but I don't eliminate mining. Every user mines. Nevermind that monsterer and others do not understand yet why this is secure.

In intend to turn ASIC miners into door stops.


A real programmer with million end user software experience can do it. These crypto nerds (e.g. Bitcoin Core devs) and 20-year olds with no such experience, obviously can not accomplish it.


No in my case it would mean the widespread mass adoption has been achieved and nothing else can then challenge it.

Unfortunately for Bitcoin and the other altcoins, I suddenly got healthy due to a miraculous multi-herbal boiled leaves tea named "Pito-Pito" by JC Herbal Products in Bukidnon. Any one with any kind of disease, this is what you need. Looks and tastes like Robitussin cough syrup.


The solution is to make mining not profitable, but retain mining and expand it to all users of the coin. Couple this with a microtransaction design and widespread use case on a popular social network designed specifically for this purpose, so there is enough mining hashrate to render botnets ineffective.


Lack of scaling is a form of terminal failure. As it devolves into centralization, the vested interests strangle it.

I need to get back to work.

This forum has turned into a pile of nonsense from a few trolls pumping ETH shit from numerous Newbie and purchased accounts. The mod does nothing to stop this Sybil attack on the forum, thus rendering the forum entirely useless for serious people such as myself.

Bye mprep!

Came to that same conclusion about BTC, because trying to mine it only cost me FIAT.

IMO,
here are the feature difference that will define the Last Coin Standing.
1.  It will be Proof of Stake, where the coin has it own intrinsic value because of its ability to reproduce more.
reason : Proof of Work is a failed ecosystem as it will always end up in the hands of the elite (that can afford to keep upgrading asics)

2.  Plus it has to have a minimum of 15 days before 1st stake and a minimum block time speed 1½ minutes or lower.
reason : Coins that allow blocks to stake in 9 days and less , give an unfair staking advantage to the rich as they can actually block the poor from being able to stake.

3.  Coin has to have a use outside of the Crypto World as a direct form of Barter for materials & services in the real & virtual worlds.

4.  Coin has to have an interest rate at least 5% but less than 11% per year.
reason : 5% makes it a competitor to stock dividends , over 11% and it will have trouble adding value to keep the price was falling.

That is my opinion, and I will even go so far as telling you the coin that in the end will succeed over BTC and any that follow.
ZEIT will be the Major coin over all.
reason : ZEIT is not a get rich quick scheme, it is an undertaking to give everyone a virtual resource for direct barter Free from the Shenanigans of the Corrupt that Pretend to Govern but in reality merely exploit the entire Human Race.

Here is the main difference, ZEIT has a Growing Force , know as The ZEIT Knights , whose very act of coming together to make a difference , will in fact change the fabric of monetary reality as we know it.

As a ZEIT Knight , I care nothing for FIAT, nothing for BTC , and nothing for LTC, all are only an ends to a means to make ZEIT Strong enough to repair this damaged world.

As far as the concern ( coin value going to zero ) , the Knights will Never Allow that to Happen!

Example:
Right Now All of the Coins are like kids playing a game of chicken by swimming out as far as possible, and the last kid that is farthest out wins as the others lose strength and faith in their chances of winning and give up and return to shore.

@ZEIT we understand that this is our Last Chance to Stop the already underway Dystopian reality before it engulfs us.
So we're not competing like the others saving our strength to swim back to shore if we fail like the others,  
We are marshalling everything we are and we're are going to make it to the other side no matter what the others do including BTC, too much depends on us , failure is not an option.

Time will show you , if I speak the Truth or just the ramblings of an ancient mind.