[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion - page 24.

kslaughter

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: EskimoBob on July 08, 2013, 11:48:29 AM

Quote from: kslaughter on July 08, 2013, 10:58:16 AM

....
Well, since bitfunder does it over all the issued shares it will be over 10 million, however the dividends from the unsold shares will go into the pot for the next weeks dividends.

WHAT?! You can not pay dividends to treasury stock. Think about it for a second. This is beyond absurd if bitfunder allows this

If you have issued 1 000 shares (Shares Total in btf speak) and 100 are outstanding (not held by issuer aka issued and sold to shareholders "Shares Issued" in btf speak), profits will be divided among 100 shares and not by 1 000 shares. 900 shares are treasury stock and those have no right for dividends, voting or for anything else.

Issued shares - shares outstanding = treasury stock

If a Co buys back its own shares for whatever reason (usually undervalued on the market and Co has huge amounts of cash laying around) those shares become automatically treasury stock.

This is the virtual world not the real world.

EskimoBob

legendary

Activity: 910

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Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank

Quote from: Vbs on July 08, 2013, 11:50:17 AM

Quote from: EskimoBob on July 08, 2013, 11:48:29 AM

Quote from: kslaughter on July 08, 2013, 10:58:16 AM

....
Well, since bitfunder does it over all the issued shares it will be over 10 million, however the dividends from the unsold shares will go into the pot for the next weeks dividends.

WHAT?! You can not pay dividends to treasury stock. Think about it for a second. This is beyond absurd if bitfunder allows this

If you have issued 1 000 shares (Shares Total in btf speak) and 100 are outstanding (not held by issuer aka issued and sold to shareholders "Shares Issued" in btf speak), profits will be divided among 100 shares and not by 1 000 shares. 900 shares are treasury stock and those have no right for dividends, voting or for anything else.

Issued shares - shares outstanding = treasury stock

If a Co buys back its own shares for whatever reason (usually undervalued on the market and Co has huge amounts of cash laying around) those shares become automatically treasury stock.

Yes, it is absurd that BF doesn't has this better implemented, like BTC-TC! Undecided

There is no "better" but only right or wrong. BTC-TC and LitecoinGlobal has it right, bitfunder has it wrong.

If any of you have hard time understanding why this is wrong, think about this situation:

Fabulous Co has 100 shares issued and 50 outstanding. Co earn 10 as profit and divide it up by 100 - 0.1 per share (yes, this is WRONG).
What happens now is that Co treasury stock receives 50x0.1 and shareholders receive 50x0.1.
Guess what, Co has 5 as dividend income that must be shared between shareholders.
So here we go again: 5/100 = 0.05 and 50*0.05 to shareholders and 50*0.05 gets sent back to Co and so and on and on and on....

Because you use broken system, it will take you close to forever to distribute all the profits to shareholders.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on July 08, 2013, 11:55:45 AM

Thanks, that makes sense.

Quick question, are you officially affiliated with AMC in some fashion?

No, but I'm following this basically from day #1 and usually talk to Ken on IRC in #bitfunder (freenode), he goes by the nick "AMC__". Grin

Either use an IRC client (I like HexChat), or go to https://bitfunder.com/help and press the "IRC Chat" tab.

FloatesMcgoates

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: Vbs on July 08, 2013, 11:49:15 AM

Quote from: Streets 2.0 on July 08, 2013, 11:41:27 AM

Looking at ButFunder, the asset page for AMC says 40 million issued, dumping the data from the Asset List on ButFunder into Excel and only adding up the AMC total shares, it is indeed 40 million shares. However in Ken's FAQ on Butfunder, he states 20 million shares are held by AMC growth fund, so if this calculates properly, it is still at 20,511,000 shares issued across both exchanges?

There are ~6M in the hands of AMC shareholders, ~14M in the hands of AMC yet to be sold, and ~20M assigned to the growth fund, for the total of ~40M.

The sum of both AMC ask walls in BF and BTC-TC is 10M shares, which is the cap of maximum to be sold, still allowing for a 1:1 tender for AM shares.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Quick question, are you officially affiliated with AMC in some fashion?

Streets 2.0

full member

Activity: 490

Merit: 101

FRX: Ferocious Alpha

Quote from: Vbs on July 08, 2013, 11:49:15 AM

Quote from: Streets 2.0 on July 08, 2013, 11:41:27 AM

Looking at ButFunder, the asset page for AMC says 40 million issued, dumping the data from the Asset List on ButFunder into Excel and only adding up the AMC total shares, it is indeed 40 million shares. However in Ken's FAQ on Butfunder, he states 20 million shares are held by AMC growth fund, so if this calculates properly, it is still at 20,511,000 shares issued across both exchanges?

There are ~6M in the hands of AMC shareholders, ~14M in the hands of AMC yet to be sold, and ~20M assigned to the growth fund, for the total of ~40M.

The sum of both AMC ask walls in BF and BTC-TC is 10M shares, which is the cap of maximum to be sold, still allowing for a 1:1 tender for AM shares.

Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: EskimoBob on July 08, 2013, 11:48:29 AM

Quote from: kslaughter on July 08, 2013, 10:58:16 AM

....
Well, since bitfunder does it over all the issued shares it will be over 10 million, however the dividends from the unsold shares will go into the pot for the next weeks dividends.

WHAT?! You can not pay dividends to treasury stock. Think about it for a second. This is beyond absurd if bitfunder allows this

If you have issued 1 000 shares (Shares Total in btf speak) and 100 are outstanding (not held by issuer aka issued and sold to shareholders "Shares Issued" in btf speak), profits will be divided among 100 shares and not by 1 000 shares. 900 shares are treasury stock and those have no right for dividends, voting or for anything else.

Issued shares - shares outstanding = treasury stock

If a Co buys back its own shares for whatever reason (usually undervalued on the market and Co has huge amounts of cash laying around) those shares become automatically treasury stock.

Yes, it is absurd that BF doesn't has this better implemented, like BTC-TC! Undecided

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: Streets 2.0 on July 08, 2013, 11:41:27 AM

Looking at ButFunder, the asset page for AMC says 40 million issued, dumping the data from the Asset List on ButFunder into Excel and only adding up the AMC total shares, it is indeed 40 million shares. However in Ken's FAQ on Butfunder, he states 20 million shares are held by AMC growth fund, so if this calculates properly, it is still at 20,511,000 shares issued across both exchanges?

There are ~6M in the hands of AMC shareholders, ~14M in the hands of AMC yet to be sold, and ~20M assigned to the growth fund, for the total of ~40M.

The sum of both AMC ask walls in BF and BTC-TC is 10M shares, which is the cap of maximum to be sold, still allowing for a 1:1 tender for AM shares.

EskimoBob

legendary

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank

Quote from: kslaughter on July 08, 2013, 10:58:16 AM

....
Well, since bitfunder does it over all the issued shares it will be over 10 million, however the dividends from the unsold shares will go into the pot for the next weeks dividends.

WHAT?! You can not pay dividends to treasury stock. Think about it for a second. This is beyond absurd if bitfunder allows this

If you have issued 1 000 shares (Shares Total in btf speak) and 100 are outstanding (not held by issuer aka issued and sold to shareholders "Shares Issued" in btf speak), profits will be divided among 100 shares and not by 1 000 shares. 900 shares are treasury stock and those have no right for dividends, voting or for anything else.

Issued shares - shares outstanding = treasury stock

If a Co buys back its own shares for whatever reason (usually undervalued on the market and Co has huge amounts of cash laying around) those shares become automatically treasury stock.

Streets 2.0

full member

Activity: 490

Merit: 101

FRX: Ferocious Alpha

Quote from: Vbs on July 08, 2013, 11:36:38 AM

Quote from: SoylentCreek on July 08, 2013, 11:35:36 AM

Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on July 08, 2013, 11:26:38 AM

Only 25 million ActiveMining shares will be released, but over 40 million AMC shares are currently released. How can a 1 for 1 swap be achieved with these numbers?

So far, the last number I looked at said that there were only 6 million shares that had been sold. In this case, a 1:1 swap is very much doable.

This.

Looking at ButFunder, the asset page for AMC says 40 million issued, dumping the data from the Asset List on ButFunder into Excel and only adding up the AMC total shares, it is indeed 40 million shares. However in Ken's FAQ on Butfunder, he states 20 million shares are held by AMC growth fund, so if this calculates properly, it is still at 20,511,000 shares issued across both exchanges?

FloatesMcgoates

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: SoylentCreek on July 08, 2013, 11:35:36 AM

Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on July 08, 2013, 11:26:38 AM

Only 25 million ActiveMining shares will be released, but over 40 million AMC shares are currently released. How can a 1 for 1 swap be achieved with these numbers?

So far, the last number I looked at said that there were only 6 million shares that had been sold. In this case, a 1:1 swap is very much doable.

Alright, so far.

But the problem still remains, no?

Edit: Ken will have to implement some sort of cap or date expiration on the 1:1 swap in order for it to make any mathematical sense with the outstanding share disparity.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: SoylentCreek on July 08, 2013, 11:35:36 AM

Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on July 08, 2013, 11:26:38 AM

Only 25 million ActiveMining shares will be released, but over 40 million AMC shares are currently released. How can a 1 for 1 swap be achieved with these numbers?

So far, the last number I looked at said that there were only 6 million shares that had been sold. In this case, a 1:1 swap is very much doable.

This.

SoylentCreek

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: FloatesMcgoates on July 08, 2013, 11:26:38 AM

Only 25 million ActiveMining shares will be released, but over 40 million AMC shares are currently released. How can a 1 for 1 swap be achieved with these numbers?

So far, the last number I looked at said that there were only 6 million shares that had been sold. In this case, a 1:1 swap is very much doable.

JimmyJazz

full member

Activity: 207

Merit: 100

I would like to swap my Bitfunder shares for the new shares being issued on bcto. As I don't trust Bitfunder anymore and its to much hassle funding your account. Will this be possible?

FloatesMcgoates

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Only 25 million ActiveMining shares will be released, but over 40 million AMC shares are currently released. How can a 1 for 1 swap be achieved with these numbers?

kslaughter

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: navitatl on July 08, 2013, 11:13:59 AM

I'd love to have the option of off-exchange shares when the 1-for-1 swap is implemented. I'm not sure what the logistics are like for that, or if it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

The 1-for-1 swap will be a transfer on the exchange. It will be a manual process, so it will be very time consuming.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: Stuartuk on July 08, 2013, 11:16:57 AM

This contract is a vast improvement on the original concept and it presents any potential shareholder with a clear company profile and set of objectives. I'm happy for you to proceed as planned.

btw would it be an idea to have another poll eg - 'Are you happy for the restructuring of AMC to proceed as planned?'. Anything over 51% YES I think would be considered unanimous.

When AMC shareholders start to tender their shares for AM shares, you have your answer to that!

Stuartuk

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: kslaughter on July 08, 2013, 10:58:16 AM

============================================================================================================================

ActiveMining: A Fresh Shart!

Version Final 7/8/13

============================================================================================================================

This contract is a vast improvement on the original concept and it presents any potential shareholder with a clear company profile and set of objectives. I'm happy for you to proceed as planned.

btw would it be an idea to have another poll eg - 'Are you happy for the restructuring of AMC to proceed as planned?'. Anything over 51% YES I think would be considered unanimous.

bobdude17

sr. member

Activity: 454

Merit: 250

Quote from: navitatl on July 08, 2013, 10:53:25 AM

Quote from: kslaughter on July 08, 2013, 10:37:34 AM

============================================================================================================================

ActiveMining: A Fresh Shart!

Lol! Please leave this in the final contract.

Too funny.

Please get that changed, it's so painful.

navitatl

member

Activity: 119

Merit: 10

I'd love to have the option of off-exchange shares when the 1-for-1 swap is implemented. I'm not sure what the logistics are like for that, or if it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

Streets 2.0

full member

Activity: 490

Merit: 101

FRX: Ferocious Alpha

Topic: [AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion - page 24. (Read 223316 times)