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Topic: An Annoying Market Failure (Read 3886 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 08, 2011, 10:30:46 AM
#68
Fund managers are regulated in the sense that they are not allowed to pack your pension fund in a suitcase and emigrate to the Bahamas.  But they are NOT regulated as to which of the firms they praise the CEO of and which they demand the CEO be sacked.  Yet they are sacking failing technology CEOs and praising failing banking CEOs.  Of course this is simplifying what is happening but the point remains its strange and inconsistent behaviour.

And they are heavily regulated in the amount of money they have access to which is one of the most important issues and my point all along.

Its true but off topic.   

Anyway, bored of this.  Regardless of the cause there doesn't seem to be anything a retail investor can do about it.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
September 08, 2011, 10:27:00 AM
#67
There's no limit to what can be blamed on regulation.

When company A rapes and pillages society, pollutes the environment, keeps children as sex slaves, and murders local villagers... it's all the government's fault because of that building code about the minimum height of door frames.  If it wasn't for that evil regulation, everything else would have gone differently.

Another example of constructive an on-topic comment of AyeYo. Very interesting your explanation about banking regulations. Keep the good work.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 08, 2011, 08:58:57 AM
#66
Fund managers are regulated in the sense that they are not allowed to pack your pension fund in a suitcase and emigrate to the Bahamas.  But they are NOT regulated as to which of the firms they praise the CEO of and which they demand the CEO be sacked.  Yet they are sacking failing technology CEOs and praising failing banking CEOs.  Of course this is simplifying what is happening but the point remains its strange and inconsistent behaviour.

And they are heavily regulated in the amount of money they have access to which is one of the most important issues and my point all along.


There's no limit to what can be blamed on regulation.

When company A rapes and pillages society, pollutes the environment, keeps children as sex slaves, and murders local villagers... it's all the government's fault because of that building code about the minimum height of door frames.  If it wasn't for that evil regulation, everything else would have gone differently.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
September 08, 2011, 07:42:18 AM
#65
The only reason British banks collapsed was because Reagans best friend Margarat Thatcher Deregulated all the fucking banks during her reign of terror, in addition to essentially closing all the mines, factories, salting the north so nothing would grow and making ritual satanic sacrifices a requirement to join the tory party.

Neither Reagan nor Margareth Thatcher removed any of the banking regulations that Ive metioned.

If you want to try to prove that they did, please go ahead.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
September 08, 2011, 07:30:27 AM
#64
The only reason British banks collapsed was because Reagans best friend Margarat Thatcher Deregulated all the fucking banks during her reign of terror, in addition to essentially closing all the mines, factories, salting the north so nothing would grow and making ritual satanic sacrifices a requirement to join the tory party.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
September 08, 2011, 06:51:50 AM
#63
Fund managers are regulated in the sense that they are not allowed to pack your pension fund in a suitcase and emigrate to the Bahamas.  But they are NOT regulated as to which of the firms they praise the CEO of and which they demand the CEO be sacked.  Yet they are sacking failing technology CEOs and praising failing banking CEOs.  Of course this is simplifying what is happening but the point remains its strange and inconsistent behaviour.

And they are heavily regulated in the amount of money they have access to which is one of the most important issues and my point all along.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 08, 2011, 06:29:59 AM
#62
Fund managers are not regulated as to which companies they invest in.  Normally they are a proactive bunch and CEOs who are not performing are made very aware of that fact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14816077 Carol Bartz is a fine example of someone who was not performing and was fired.  Thats a good thing and we want it to happen.

As you can see in the article linked in OP, fund managers do that regularly but for some reason ignore failing bank management.  They simply are not making the management pay for poor performance in banking the way they are made to pay for poor performance in the technology sector.

1. The fund managers are regulated.
2. They get their money from the banking system to leverage and are completely influenced by the supply of money and credit.


Please, make some sense.

Quote
I've googled a bit and the problem seems to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry.   Its a known cause of market failure.  And as the article says, its not one that regulation would help.

Neoclassical economics assumed until the 70's that information was given. Austrian economics has always assumed information was local and fragmented and no one had all the information. This fact was one of the main arguments of austrians to prove that centralized systems dont work and the free market is the best solution to distribute resources.

Austrian economists called out neo-classicals (including the keynesians and monetarists) on it, but they refused to listen. Then during the 70's some keynesians claimed they had discovered a flaw in the economic though, and that was that information was not given. Ignoring that this was exactly what the austrians had been saying all along, they call it information asymetry (they are always very good with the marketing). Stiglitz even got the Nobel prize for this "discovery". Then they said it was a market failure, when in reality is one of the main arguments for the free market.

Fund managers are regulated in the sense that they are not allowed to pack your pension fund in a suitcase and emigrate to the Bahamas.  But they are NOT regulated as to which of the firms they praise the CEO of and which they demand the CEO be sacked.  Yet they are sacking failing technology CEOs and praising failing banking CEOs.  Of course this is simplifying what is happening but the point remains its strange and inconsistent behaviour.

I take your point about Austrians not agreeing with the terminology.
 
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
September 08, 2011, 06:22:00 AM
#61
How will you end collusion when the banksters are entrenched not only in the regulatory bodies but Congress itself. Have you considered that the more centralized power there is the higher the incentive for these groups to try to hijack it?

Assuming this analysis is correct, it only shows that government can't work. The electorate and politicians are fickle and what you've described will always happen. If program X requires that much consistency to succeed then it won't work in a democracy, maybe it might in a monarchy or dictatorship.
You reduce the collusion by taking money out of politics. Plenty of countries have elections that don't involve trillion dollar advertising budgets!

It shows that the US government is fundamentally broken due to decades of political misinformation (anyone who still believes Reaganomics is obviously deluded), a terrible secondary education system, and a political system that runs on a combination of bribery and bombast.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
September 08, 2011, 06:17:52 AM
#60
Fund managers are not regulated as to which companies they invest in.  Normally they are a proactive bunch and CEOs who are not performing are made very aware of that fact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14816077 Carol Bartz is a fine example of someone who was not performing and was fired.  Thats a good thing and we want it to happen.

As you can see in the article linked in OP, fund managers do that regularly but for some reason ignore failing bank management.  They simply are not making the management pay for poor performance in banking the way they are made to pay for poor performance in the technology sector.

1. The fund managers are regulated.
2. They get their money from the banking system to leverage and are completely influenced by the supply of money and credit.

Please, make some sense.

Quote
I've googled a bit and the problem seems to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry.   Its a known cause of market failure.  And as the article says, its not one that regulation would help.

Neoclassical economics assumed until the 70's that information was given. Austrian economics has always assumed information was local and fragmented and no one had all the information. This fact was one of the main arguments of austrians to prove that centralized systems dont work and the free market is the best solution to distribute resources.

Austrian economists called out neo-classicals (including the keynesians and monetarists) on it, but they refused to listen. Then during the 70's some keynesians claimed they had discovered a flaw in the economic though, and that was that information was not given. Ignoring that this was exactly what the austrians had been saying all along, they call it information asymetry (they are always very good with the marketing). Stiglitz even got the Nobel prize for this "discovery". Then they said it was a market failure, when in reality is one of the main arguments for the free market.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 08, 2011, 05:59:13 AM
#59
Read the OP.  The problem is not in the banking or credit system - its in the investment system.

I think you want to re-read yourself. The banking and credit system is the investment system.

Fund managers are not regulated as to which companies they invest in.  Normally they are a proactive bunch and CEOs who are not performing are made very aware of that fact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14816077 Carol Bartz is a fine example of someone who was not performing and was fired.  Thats a good thing and we want it to happen.

As you can see in the article linked in OP, fund managers do that regularly but for some reason ignore failing bank management.  They simply are not making the management pay for poor performance in banking the way they are made to pay for poor performance in the technology sector.

I've googled a bit and the problem seems to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry.   Its a known cause of market failure.  And as the article says, its not one that regulation would help.

legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
September 08, 2011, 04:44:38 AM
#58
Read the OP.  The problem is not in the banking or credit system - its in the investment system.

I think you want to re-read yourself. The banking and credit system is the investment system.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 08, 2011, 03:24:17 AM
#57
This is a market failure; not regulatory and no regulation can fix it.  Investment managers are not doing their jobs.  And since each of us individually has so little cash in the investment funds, they don't really care if one person or another takes their savings elsewhere.  Besides, where can you go when it seems all of them have this same blind spot?

The banking system is one of the areas more heavily regulated in the western countries. The money market is a government created monopolly and the credit system is a government created oligopolly, with the government setting the basic interest rates by decree. And you tell me its a market failure? I hope this is some kind of joke.

Btw, I know you wont because you are too busy trolling but I would suggest you go to research historic periods where the banking and money markets have been a free market and you will see this you are complaining about did not happened.

Read the OP.  The problem is not in the banking or credit system - its in the investment system. 

And its childish calling everyone who you disagree with a troll.  Either stop feeding me or grow up a little.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
September 08, 2011, 03:02:14 AM
#56
This is a market failure; not regulatory and no regulation can fix it.  Investment managers are not doing their jobs.  And since each of us individually has so little cash in the investment funds, they don't really care if one person or another takes their savings elsewhere.  Besides, where can you go when it seems all of them have this same blind spot?

The banking system is one of the areas more heavily regulated in the western countries. The money market is a government created monopolly and the credit system is a government created oligopolly, with the government setting the basic interest rates by decree. And you tell me its a market failure? I hope this is some kind of joke.

Btw, I know you wont because you are too busy trolling but I would suggest you go to research historic periods where the banking and money markets have been a free market and you will see this you are complaining about did not happened.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 08, 2011, 02:30:18 AM
#55
This is a market failure; not regulatory and no regulation can fix it.  Investment managers are not doing their jobs.  And since each of us individually has so little cash in the investment funds, they don't really care if one person or another takes their savings elsewhere.  Besides, where can you go when it seems all of them have this same blind spot?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 08, 2011, 12:02:01 AM
#54
The electorate and politicians are fickle and what you've described will always happen. If program X requires that much consistency to succeed then it won't work in a democracy, maybe it might in a monarchy or dictatorship.

Sadly, this is pretty much true.
hero member
Activity: 2086
Merit: 501
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
September 07, 2011, 11:52:19 PM
#53
How in hell is that a Market Failure when you have Central Planning in Monetary Policy, innumerable banking and finance regulations and an army of bureaucrats to go with it??!! This is a clear failure in govt policy, and govt supporters are failing to take responsibility! 
It was market failure in that it was a systemic failure in numerous sections of the financial sector. The only fault government had in this was poor, neglected regulation to begin with, and ham-fisted management of the bank bail-outs.

The markets failed because of a set of securities and derivatives that crazy people invented and everyone bought. Everyone was tossing around mis-labeled investments that turned out to be live grenades and then when the grenades went off they found they were all tied to each other with no way out. Everyone involved should be in prison and THAT is where the government truly failed.

And the proliferation of said securities had nothing to do with the artificially low interest rates dictated by the Central Bank?


My solution is fixing the oversight. End the collusion between the US SEC and Wall St, tighten banking regs, eliminate these insane securities/derivatives, and fix a broken system. Anything else is bound to create the exact same problem (albeit possibly in a new sphere) in a few decades.

The SEC wasn't so much asleep at the wheel as it was openly trading staff with PWC and Goldman Sachs. Congress wasn't so much ignorant and clumsy as they were paid for representatives of Bear Stearns et al, and that's only going to get worse when the corrosive effects of Citizens United really happen.

How will you end collusion when the banksters are entrenched not only in the regulatory bodies but Congress itself. Have you considered that the more centralized power there is the higher the incentive for these groups to try to hijack it?


Consider: you've got a government program that does X. When created, it's funded at 80% of what subject matter experts asked for but that's all congress would give. Next election a new congress is elected that decides that government is doing a terrible job at X (despite it not having started), taxes are too high, and they hate X anyway...and halves the funding. The new program doesn't succeed.

Is this government not being able to do its job or is it because dumb fucks who believe as you do vote in people who hamstring government so that it cannot do its job? Hint: its the latter.

Assuming this analysis is correct, it only shows that government can't work. The electorate and politicians are fickle and what you've described will always happen. If program X requires that much consistency to succeed then it won't work in a democracy, maybe it might in a monarchy or dictatorship.

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 07, 2011, 11:22:21 PM
#52
This might just be me being a "dumb fuck", as you so eloquently put it, but I'm pretty sure that 1/2 does not equal 0.

He said that halving the funding plays a significant role in causing a program to fail. Nowhere did he say that 1/2 equals 0. Just maybe you are a dumb fuck, as you suppose, or maybe you think we're dumb fucks and will fall for your spin of what he said. Which is it?
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 07, 2011, 10:10:43 PM
#51
Incidentally, the standard American attitude of "the government is broken, we need to get rid of it!" is exactly why your government is broken.

halves the funding

This might just be me being a "dumb fuck", as you so eloquently put it, but I'm pretty sure that 1/2 does not equal 0. Also, saying that government fails to work because it doesn't have enough power or money is kind of like when a psychic medium says that they got an answer wrong because you didn't believe enough. It's pretty convenient that the fault is always with someone else.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
September 07, 2011, 09:53:44 PM
#50
Incidentally, the standard American attitude of "the government is broken, we need to get rid of it!" is exactly why your government is broken. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Does not compute.
Consider: you've got a government program that does X. When created, it's funded at 80% of what subject matter experts asked for but that's all congress would give. Next election a new congress is elected that decides that government is doing a terrible job at X (despite it not having started), taxes are too high, and they hate X anyway...and halves the funding. The new program doesn't succeed.

Is this government not being able to do its job or is it because dumb fucks who believe as you do vote in people who hamstring government so that it cannot do its job? Hint: its the latter.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
September 07, 2011, 09:23:48 PM
#49
Fear caused failure in goverment, on other hand failure in goverment was caused by money and lobbying...

It's high time to crash the system, endure some bad years and move to brighter future. Also getting rid of investment banking and sectors which don't produce real tanglible value for economy, investments and such are needed for stock market, but there is lot of crap which is just bubbles, like there once was tulips Grin
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