An Annoying Market Failure - page 2.

AyeYo

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Quote from: NghtRppr on September 07, 2011, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: bitconformist on September 07, 2011, 08:38:34 PM

Incidentally, the standard American attitude of "the government is broken, we need to get rid of it!" is exactly why your government is broken. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Does not compute.

Exert all the thinking effort your brain can muster and it might begin to compute. Then the world will make more sense to you.

You can't on the one hand claim that government is bad because it allows corporations to rape and pillage... then turn around and say we need to do away with government, give all power directly to corporations and they'll magically start behaving. If they don't behave WITH regulation, they aren't going to behave WITHOUT regulation.

You've got a rowdy prisoner that keeps trying to break out of jail and your solutions is: let's just get rid of the jail and then he can't break out of it anymore! The rest of us with working brains and a little foresight are saying: let's fix the hole in the fence and fire the guards that are colluding with him.

NghtRppr

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Quote from: bitconformist on September 07, 2011, 08:38:34 PM

Incidentally, the standard American attitude of "the government is broken, we need to get rid of it!" is exactly why your government is broken. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Does not compute.

bitconformist

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Incidentally, the standard American attitude of "the government is broken, we need to get rid of it!" is exactly why your government is broken. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

bitconformist

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Quote from: NghtRppr on September 07, 2011, 07:24:57 PM

Quote from: bitconformist on September 07, 2011, 06:34:09 PM

The only fault government had in this was poor, neglected regulation to begin with, and ham-fisted management of the bank bail-outs.

So, government is provably incompetent at setting and enforcing regulations and your answer is, more regulations? Brilliant!

My solution is fixing the oversight. End the collusion between the US SEC and Wall St, tighten banking regs, eliminate these insane securities/derivatives, and fix a broken system. Anything else is bound to create the exact same problem (albeit possibly in a new sphere) in a few decades.

The SEC wasn't so much asleep at the wheel as it was openly trading staff with PWC and Goldman Sachs. Congress wasn't so much ignorant and clumsy as they were paid for representatives of Bear Stearns et al, and that's only going to get worse when the corrosive effects of Citizens United really happen.

NghtRppr

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Quote from: bitconformist on September 07, 2011, 06:34:09 PM

The only fault government had in this was poor, neglected regulation to begin with, and ham-fisted management of the bank bail-outs.

So, government is provably incompetent at setting and enforcing regulations and your answer is, more regulations? Brilliant!

AyeYo

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Quote from: bitconformist on September 07, 2011, 06:34:09 PM

Quote from: GideonGono on September 06, 2011, 12:07:14 PM

How in hell is that a Market Failure when you have Central Planning in Monetary Policy, innumerable banking and finance regulations and an army of bureaucrats to go with it??!! This is a clear failure in govt policy, and govt supporters are failing to take responsibility!

It was market failure in that it was a systemic failure in numerous sections of the financial sector. The only fault government had in this was poor, neglected regulation to begin with, and ham-fisted management of the bank bail-outs.

The markets failed because of a set of securities and derivatives that crazy people invented and everyone bought. Everyone was tossing around mis-labeled investments that turned out to be live grenades and then when the grenades went off they found they were all tied to each other with no way out. Everyone involved should be in prison and THAT is where the government truly failed.

x1000

bitconformist

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Quote from: GideonGono on September 06, 2011, 12:07:14 PM

How in hell is that a Market Failure when you have Central Planning in Monetary Policy, innumerable banking and finance regulations and an army of bureaucrats to go with it??!! This is a clear failure in govt policy, and govt supporters are failing to take responsibility!

It was market failure in that it was a systemic failure in numerous sections of the financial sector. The only fault government had in this was poor, neglected regulation to begin with, and ham-fisted management of the bank bail-outs.

The markets failed because of a set of securities and derivatives that crazy people invented and everyone bought. Everyone was tossing around mis-labeled investments that turned out to be live grenades and then when the grenades went off they found they were all tied to each other with no way out. Everyone involved should be in prison and THAT is where the government truly failed.

Hawker

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Quote from: becoin on September 06, 2011, 01:00:58 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 06, 2011, 12:11:00 PM

Investment managers are free to invest where they choose but are supposed to invest where they get the gretest return.

The greatest return is when you bribe government officials. You get the information you need (you say it is asymmetrical, huh) and lucrative contracts, and government bail-outs!

Quote

The investment managers are essejntially paying for people to mess them up - it doesn't make sense.

I hope it now does make sense!

Pension funds don't get money that way. Feel free to check their accounts.

becoin

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Quote from: Hawker on September 06, 2011, 12:11:00 PM

Investment managers are free to invest where they choose but are supposed to invest where they get the gretest return.

The greatest return is when you bribe government officials. You get the information you need (you say it is asymmetrical, huh) and lucrative contracts, and government bail-outs!

Quote

The investment managers are essejntially paying for people to mess them up - it doesn't make sense.

I hope it now does make sense!

Hawker

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Quote from: GideonGono on September 06, 2011, 12:07:14 PM

How in hell is that a Market Failure when you have Central Planning in Monetary Policy, innumerable banking and finance regulations and an army of bureaucrats to go with it??!! This is a clear failure in govt policy, and govt supporters are failing to take responsibility!

Actually you don't. Investment managers are free to invest where they choose but are supposed to invest where they get the gretest return. The higher their returns, the better their bonuses. Its a good system. But for soem reason, they are investing in banks that are very badly managed and the bank management are taking millions as huge bonuses. The investment managers are essejntially paying for people to mess them up - it doesn't make sense.

Apparently the problem is "asymmetrical information" - its a known cause of market failure.

GideonGono

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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

How in hell is that a Market Failure when you have Central Planning in Monetary Policy, innumerable banking and finance regulations and an army of bureaucrats to go with it??!! This is a clear failure in govt policy, and govt supporters are failing to take responsibility!

becoin

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Quote from: JeffK on September 04, 2011, 05:36:52 AM

Markets are people, If people fail, markets fail.

No! Markets are markets. People are people.

Quote

Do you remember that scene from the baron Munchausen story when the famous baron and his horse are sinking into the swamp, then, driven by a brilliant idea, the baron grabs his own hair and pulls himself and his horse out of the swamp.

You must be a great fan of baron Munchhausen's approach to surrounding reality?!... People just need to change their mind to get the markets going?!... Huh?...

FirstAscent

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He's got at least four on his ignore list (me included). And I've never seen someone so perfectly embody the definition of petulance as when he puts someone on the ignore list.

AyeYo

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Quote from: JeffK on September 05, 2011, 06:58:18 AM

Quote from: NghtRppr on September 05, 2011, 06:24:36 AM

Quote from: JeffK on September 05, 2011, 06:11:31 AM

A group of people cannot be a part/whole of a hammer. They can be part or the whole of a market though. Your 'blame the person, not the tool' analogy does not make sense, because markets are not so much a tool as they are a product of human interactions.

Side note: You, however, are a tool, so maybe it makes sense if you think about it that way.

I was going to debate this with you since you were making a decent argument but now I'm just going to add you to my ignore list. If someone with some manners wants to take up your argument, I'll debate it with them instead. Don't bother responding to me because I won't be able to see it. Unless, of course, you just like talking to yourself.

(He just can't think up an analogy)

He'll eventually have the entire forum on his ignore list and he'll just be talking to himself. It's easier to hang out to laughably idiotic beliefs when you don't have to hear anyone challenge them.

JeffK

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I never hashed for this...

Quote from: NghtRppr on September 05, 2011, 06:24:36 AM

Quote from: JeffK on September 05, 2011, 06:11:31 AM

A group of people cannot be a part/whole of a hammer. They can be part or the whole of a market though. Your 'blame the person, not the tool' analogy does not make sense, because markets are not so much a tool as they are a product of human interactions.

Side note: You, however, are a tool, so maybe it makes sense if you think about it that way.

I was going to debate this with you since you were making a decent argument but now I'm just going to add you to my ignore list. If someone with some manners wants to take up your argument, I'll debate it with them instead. Don't bother responding to me because I won't be able to see it. Unless, of course, you just like talking to yourself.

(He just can't think up an analogy)

NghtRppr

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Quote from: JeffK on September 05, 2011, 06:11:31 AM

A group of people cannot be a part/whole of a hammer. They can be part or the whole of a market though. Your 'blame the person, not the tool' analogy does not make sense, because markets are not so much a tool as they are a product of human interactions.

Side note: You, however, are a tool, so maybe it makes sense if you think about it that way.

I was going to debate this with you since you were making a decent argument but now I'm just going to add you to my ignore list. If someone with some manners wants to take up your argument, I'll debate it with them instead. Don't bother responding to me because I won't be able to see it. Unless, of course, you just like talking to yourself.

JeffK

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Activity: 350

Merit: 250

I never hashed for this...

A group of people cannot be a part/whole of a hammer. They can be part or the whole of a market though. Your 'blame the person, not the tool' analogy does not make sense, because markets are not so much a tool as they are a product of human interactions.

Side note: You, however, are a tool, so maybe it makes sense if you think about it that way.

NghtRppr

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Elder Crypto God

Quote from: JeffK on September 04, 2011, 11:13:51 PM

This analogy doesn't make a goddamn bit of sense.

I'm sorry you don't understand it. Tell me what's confusing about it and I'll walk you through it.

becoin

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Quote from: onesalt on September 04, 2011, 07:33:11 PM

Now you imagine what would happen if this happened in the USA, with a GDP of 14 trillion dollars, suddenly had its GDP drop by half.

Nothing unwitnessed before will happen. What did happen when the Soviet empire collapsed? Nothing too dramatic. The sky didn't fall.

The US is an economic bubble for decades for they consume 25% (producing less than 20%) of the world GDP virtually living on credit for decades. Their military budget is bigger than military budgets of all other countries on this planet taken together! If what you describe takes place the US will just cease to be the only super power in this world - nothing more and nothing less. The sky will not fall. Economic power will shift to Asia-Pacific region. It is currently shifting anyway. Postponing the inevitable by money printing in the US and EU is just borrowing from the future, deteriorating the consequences, and blatantly robbing future generations.

TiagoTiago

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Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)

The top hats still get their bonuses 'cause otherwise the company would loose money; if they didn't get their big bucks as usual it would send the message the company is fragile and doesn't expect to keep making money and the investors would run away. Like this guy mentioned in the video, the top guys in the drug gangs still make it rain even when busyness is bad, for the fear of showing weakness.

Topic: An Annoying Market Failure - page 2. (Read 3811 times)