Topic: Angry at the high fees? That's what everyone predicted the future will be like! - page 7. (Read 1114 times)

No, is just assessing two situations, with both being completely true

1) Is the recent fee increase caused by Ordinals? YES!
2) To keep the network secure in the future when there is no block reward, are we going to have to pay the same inflated fees? YES!

I just used the current mempool situation to describe the future scenario, because if I had done so when the fees were 1sat/b nobody would have paid attention, now, things are different!


Exactly, it was designed to be like this, the network will run on fees once all the coins are mined!
Remember? We had 21 million topics about this!
So when this is going happens it will be pretty much like a security company, if the fees it gets from transactions are 5$ it will act just like a police officer who is paid the minimum wage on his retirement day, if the fees are in the millions, then you can afford one full battalion of bodyguards.


Well, technically even now we're paying for the security, since more fees mean more miners, but a bit irrelevant.

And yes, I know pretty well the change will be gradual, what I'm trying to tell people is that the image they chanted so easily when they were typing what will happen when all coins are mined is this one!

So it's not going to be a walk in the park, oh miners will live on from fees, and everything is fine, but it will be more like what we see now!
Some really need to understand that the reason why they can send money to another country is completely secure with no chance of transactions being reversed or censored does not happen magically, it's possible with $30 million being spent each day on that security!

Bottom line, prepare to pay up once the money printing is done!

you have to understand there are big players that think watts to dollars.
 Foundry turned my down at their pool as I only have 5ph. You need 20 ph to mine with them. So I can not tell you how much they grab for the fees.



For a 35-40% hash rate pool if they can push fees to 2-3 coins a block they get .40 x 144 = 58 blocks a day with an extra 1.5 btc or
87 to 100 btc. They may only spend a few btc to cause the issues. All they need do is hook up with 1 other large pool and they can do this 2-3 coin  fee per block move every few months.


see both  this quote belong and read this link. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-all-miners-need-to-mine-on-a-pool-that-pays-them-the-tx-fees-2634505


tack on 20 more block with fees over 1.3 btc so

816062
815867 is 195 straight high fee blocks

which can be done with willful manipulation by large pools btw you do not need ordinals to do it.

So can't this be considered the opposite of what you wrote in the first post?
Aren't a bunch of miserable transactions with overpaid fees a kind of attack on the network? this https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/question-about-bitcoin-network-spammer-5473421

I understand that miners are fine with this.


This follows on from what I wrote above referencing Bitcoin users to altcoins. No, I don't want to use any other altcoin instead of Bitcoin.

Ordinals or whatever are just using the scarce block space which drives the fees up. The fees would be high anyway because of how limited the blockspace is.

Currently the fees are high because there's a lot of market activity, which means a lot of coins moving in, out and between exchanges. And I would expect the fees to get even higher when the big bull run starts, we could totally see $10-20 per transaction.

Unluckily for me, this is going to be a setback in my business for customers who are going to be paying with Bitcoin.

What surprises me is that you say that this is how it was designed to be. Whereas, just as Odohu has said, I thought it's the ordinal stuff that is making the fee hike, or are you, @stompix, suggesting that since the system was designed to be so, it might even be worse in the future? Also, since it's the ordinals that are causing the fee to hike now, in the future, what else could cause it to spike if not the ordinals?

This is not the first time I have experienced this high fee saga; as a matter of fact, the last fee spik, I spent like $10 trying to withdraw Bitcoin worth $60. It's not funny, though, but that's what we agree to, but it's going to discourage new Bitcoiners.

We do say that one can invest a small amount in Bitcoin. What if the person wants to invest $10 in Bitcoin and is going to spend that amount just on a fee? Ah!!

The fee now is getting high and I think it is not a good omen in the future. When I made at transaction on the month of September, the transaction was 0.00002 if I am not mistaking but now the transaction I made on last Sunday was 0.000075 and for the fee has increased. Me, I was not expecting bitcoin transaction fee to increase because from the white paper bitcoin can be used to buy things online and of the fee is high then that purpose will be defeated. Because it is not nice for you to buy something in the market with bitcoin and you want to pay with bitcoin

And if the fee is high then will affect your transaction so instead you use fiat to pay. If Miners need fees to keep the system running they have to consider that not everyone has enough bitcoin to transfer from one wallet to another. So they have to know that. Yes the prediction is always there to remind users.

I understand you in the first instance, but being in sync with the idea of "acceptance" of high fees does not mean that this has to be the case, that is, we can understand  rates technicality is an important consideration, but! from the point of view of the common user, the technical equivalence of their vision is irrelevant, that is, "why" .

Then, in my case if compared to Swift transfers, know, these prices (today) are still (in the limits) an advantage to do it via bitcoin, but in that idea, if I am a 100% bitcoin user, the fees They are reprehensible.

In any case, in addition to LN, I think that low priority (+ RBF) works if you take precautions not to have emergencies.

Frankly, the fees that are being charged are nothing compared to the fees that are charged by conventional banks so in comparison, I'll say it is awesome that the technology came to save the day but if we take a closer look at the fees in the blockchain network and the way its increasing, it leaves a very concerning question, will this fees keep increasing as the price of the coins appreciate?

Moving from cents to a few dollars and then hundreds of dollars (talking about ethereum)

They process the payments. They make sure that each transaction transmitted is received and goes from the sender to its receiver. They should not call 100% of the shots but they are technically the backbone of the network. They are a substantial part at that. While I agree that the fees should remain economical to a lot of people, I can't also help to think that maybe we are really headed for a future wherein fees are high in order to compensate and motivate miners to continue hashing and help keep bitcoin safe from 51% attacks.

All I can say right now is, I don't have a choice but to wait until everything subsides before I start using bitcoins to move my funds again.

People are angry because of sudden spikes in fees, at least that's the way I understand the current situation.

If fees were slowly rising, acting somewhat like inflated goods, they wouldn't notice it, the same way people don't notice their taxes taking more of their income each year, as their income grows.
It doesn't matter to them that they are now paying $100 more every month, because their pay rose by $500, so it's understandable, after all they have more money so there's nothing to complain about, right?

In August, September and October of 2021 the price was reaching all time highs and the fees were lower than they are now. Lower prices with higher fees = failed expectations and angry crowd with pitchforks.
You say the fees were expected, I say the negative sentiment was expected as well.

Ordinals and Inscriptions are making use of bitcoin as fee and depending on bitcoin blockchain for making transaction which leads to more mempool congestion, but miner are truly making more money from bitcoin transactions due to it. But bitcoin has been successful since 2009 to 2023 before there was anything like Ordinals and the network was growing and increasing in hashrates. Although, Ordinals are benefiting the miners but bitcoin can survive without it if the price continues to increase. I mean if bitcoin remain an appreciative asset.

Well, first of all, thank you, for bringing this here, as per Odhu I also think in the same way that the network congestion is due to the Ordinals, which is a fact as well, but I was compleltly ignoring the security concerns. The way you explained really changed my mindset, for good security what we need is to pay back better.

At the same time over time, it will inflate as well, No one forcing those who care to be willing to pay, and those who do not want to can move on.

To the end on the bright side, it's beautiful.

That's exactly it is! Any form of NFT is disaster for any legit crypto network. We have seen the madness in ETH and now we are seeing it in Bitcoin. Is there a way to ban this nonsense entirely from Bitcoin network? Due to this high fees, Bitcoin is slowly becoming outdated compared to the innovation that are happening in mainstream financial world. Bitcoin transactions are becoming expensive to an extent where it is becoming irrelevant and if not solved immediately, might become irrelevant as a payment processor. It will then remain as an investment asset only!

We should be familiar this, the world most often work like this, you get the value of what you paid for. But my thoughts is it would be disastrous to have a future of Bitcoin where miners calls the shots in such a way, having the transaction security we have now at a very affordable price is an underrated flex I hope it doesn't get this bad like you said it would be a long time, regardless we hope for a sustainable Bitcoin future.

Definitely this is predicted to happen but why someone like me is angry about this hike is because we are not paying for security of the network that will benefit us all but we are paying such high fee because some folks created garbage and some naive folks thinks they could make profit out of it. We are bin disturb with something worthless which will soon die down. If it was as you stated out for security purposes which won’t just happen out of the blue like this one, but will be gradual process and we would well informed of that.


This is for those that already have those Altcoins, if you don’t have you would still need to transfer your bitcoin to exchange to buy them which still requires transaction fee  and also not worth the hassle.
How About the safest option, leave off transaction with bitcoin for now and use fiat except on cases you are obliged to, this will soon die down

No matter what the reason of high fees these days, just look for alternatives to combat the high fees.
If you can use other top alts to trade, better look into this matter rather than look for such reasons why.
There will be no benefit of digging why, just find your other options to avoid such fees.
This maybe just another phase in btc, sooner or later, the fees will go down again.

Exactly!


I'm not discussing the cause here!
What I'm trying to point out is what the future everyone was talking about looks like!

Miners will need to get paid for securing the network, this is a must, you can't pay all those miners 2 cents fee unless you want only the same level of security as Ethereum classic, so the whole thing is pretty simple, nobody will force you to do a thing but
- if in the future we will pay 1 cent per tx we would have one cent worth of bodyguard
- if in the future we want to have the same level of security as now, we have to pay twice the fees we're paying in the last few blocks!

Again, nobody will be forcing you to do so, but....the are consequences if not!

But look at the bright side, most of us will be dead and buried by that time!

At this point it is becoming confusing. I read somewhere that the high fees is as a result of Ordinal or NFTs on the Bitcoin network. According to the said comment, the Ordinals is a new trend that is massively being traded, hence the congestion of the Bitcoin network.

I do know that this is not the first time I'm witnessing the situation we are facing now. So it becomes confusing knowing what to believe to be the cause of the high fees and if there is any other way around it with respect to the future because fees like this is a kind of discouraging!

Yes, another fee topic, deal with it! 

I know, nobody likes to pay fees, nobody! Me neither!
And if there is an exception for sure it doesn't want to pay high fees, so it's pretty understandable that everyone is unhappy about it!
But at the same time, why are you angry at the same situation everyone was believing in it and predicting it?

Every single time a newbie asked what would happen when there would be no mining reward he got the same response over 10 pages, miners will live on from fees, and the security of the blockchain will be generated from fees! And here we are, although the fees are not quite high enough yet!

The last block:
https://mempool.space/block/00000000000000000002745f5dc332c3f8373773c05f3507c51bbfb4e402359b
generated :

so in order for the fees to replace the reward, you would need twice as much already, even despite this:

To make it as short as possible, for the network to have the same security as now without a block reward we would need each block to have twice as big fees in the future, that's how things work!
So, are you angry with high fees? Yes, we all are, but, wasn't this the design?

Before anyone comes up with some myths about this, let's clear some things

1) More efficient gear isn't making the network more secure alone, what's making the network secure is the amount of $ to invest to generate that hashrate, so if you think more efficient gear will mean the network will be just as secure but cheaper, it's delusional.
Right now the network is guarded by 400Exahash, which alone doesn't mean a thing, you must translate those into 4 million $2000 a piece machines to understand the security right now, as it takes 8 billion to launch a 51% attack. This also doesn't mean that because the hashrate in 2013 was one million lower you could attack it at that time with just 8000$ 

2) Cheaper energy or solar or renewable or anything else, again won't solve a thing, even if we run our gear on 0.1 cents per kWh if the reward per day is just $1000 you will only be able to afford 1Gkwh, so anyone willing to spend more than $1000 on energy will have the upper hand!

So, as a conclusion or encouragement or whatever, don't be angry at the fees, they help secure the network, and this is how it was designed to be in the first place, otherwise, we would end up like Bitcoin Gold or Ethereum classic, shitcoins getting 51% attacked 3 times in a row.

And of course, for now, we could actually start using LN rather than complaining, but that would be a solution that involves doing something!