[ANN] FACTOM - Introducing Honesty to Record-Keeping - page 350.

tempus

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Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 11:23:36 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 11:07:42 PM

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Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 10:53:03 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Here come the trolls.. Wow. As soon as there is any good news you can count on them to show up in full force and bring their FUD. Definitely time to buy and hold folks. Enough said.

I'm not trolling, as I said, I'm invested for the long haul. If I'm wrong about something, please point it out. I'm presenting my theory based upon the statements of the lead developer.

Or I'd love a Factom employee to explain how I'm wrong. I'd love to be very wrong and pick up some more Factom if it's actually underpriced. But based upon my analysis, it's overpriced at present.

Haha invested, what a joke.. waste of time trying to respond to a paid troll. Your history convicts you my friend. Please go find another incredible coin to troll and maybe you'll have better luck. Likely not. Trolls are so easy to spot these days it's almost hilarious.

http://imgur.com/kZq1yRu - A screenshot from Poloniex

I suspect you've invested more than you should in Factoids. If you're getting that upset, you may want to evaluate how much you're investing into your various cryptocurrencies.

And did you actually read my post history?

Wow you are good! I have invested in Factom and do believe in this team. IMO this is the best time to accumulate. Time will tell if I'm right.

Oh by the way if you think factoids are so 'under valued' because of your fantastic analysis why don't you sell now and buy back cheaper.

Because I'm an investor, not a trader. I create an entry position and then continue to buy on the way up as fundamentals support increased prices. If fundamentals don't support increased prices, I don't buy. Right now, I don't see the fundamentals supporting the price. Hiding that fact won't change much as the market always finds the fair price.

I understand your point, but I'm not sure I agree with your proposition that the fundamentals don't support the price. If your definition is totally based on the present time, you are correct. We could say: If Factom would stay how it is and where it is, with the current use to be stable but without increasing use, the current price would be too high. That would be correct. But the fundamentals are not just about the current use of the system that isn't even totally finished yet.

The current use looks this way:

Source: Usage Statistics
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RUZLxxoAfT3C5jIJ144DLYdztYe_sqrKqbTlZuD05-s/edit#gid=445871101

What it shows is an increasing number of users and if you focus on Poloniex for example, it's also rational to assume an increasing number of EC's being used per user/company. That is what it shows.

To evaluate the current value it's rational in my eyes to think about it all, also about obviously ongoing negotiations behind the curtain we don't know much about yet. Because it's more rational to assume that Factom will grow, that the use will continue to increase and that they will deliver more and that there will be more deals in the future, as it's probably that it will stay where it is.

If you think about it all, it's still hard or even impossible to calculate a fair price for now, but I personal wouldn't say it's overvalued because under the line it's about potential and I don't know of any other project in which I would see that much potential as in Factom.

ELikesCrypto

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Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 10:44:35 PM

Quote from: SyRenity on March 30, 2016, 08:24:53 PM

I well understand how it works for Factom, ensuring they and their clients will never reach a position where the Factoid are prohibitively expensive to buy off market.

What I don't understand is how the increased adoption benefits us the coin holders, as any temporary price increase will be always balanced downwards (the more EC's used and more Factoids are burnt / purchased, the more the increased EC/Factoid exchange rate will push the price back).

I love this project and have invested a little for the LONG haul, but the fact is, Factoids are horrendously overpriced at present. How do I know this? From Brian Deery's post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/factom/comments/47nyx0/thoughts_of_the_economic_model_of_factom_and/d0gqwdz

Quote from: Brian

The Factoids also are a reward to the servers to pay for engineering time, server, and bandwidth costs. The current market price of ~1$ roughly corresponds to a steady state prediction of about 800 gigabytes/year being added to the system or about 27 TPS.

1 entry credit allows you to enter up to 1kb of data according to the store here: https://www.factom.com/entry-credits/

What that means, is that at a Factoid price of $1.00, 800 gigs a year allow for 800,000,000+ entry credits to be used. If you look at the blockchain, on 10/05/2016 they entered Project Gutenberg into the chain which consisted of over 22,000 books. Not single documents, but BOOKS. By my rough count, 22,000 books used up around 20,000 entry credits.

If I'm correct, and I believe I am, this means Factoids are pretty darn overpriced right now. Sad

At a current price of $1.70, that means we're looking at needing to use 1,360,000,000 entry credits.

I understand your concern, but i think the way you build your foundation for this conclusion is shaky - to say the least.
Could you explain how you get to the estimation of 20,000 entry credits for 22,000 books? And i assume you mean 10/05/2015, not 2016?
I don't think it's fair to say that Factoids are currently overpriced based on this one transaction into the chain.
The current price, like the price for all cryptocurrencies, is based on expectations. How else can we explain the current price of Ethers for example? Are the actual current transactions on the Ethereum blockchain supporting this price?
Also, we have no idea what the number of transactions/ amount of data will be that goes onto the blockchain once Factoids will actually be used in real life. Working for a large insurance company myself i am aware that 10,000's of gigs of contract related data are stored on servers/in the cloud for my company alone. 800 gig is nothing.
I think it's safe to say that we are all still early adopters here, investing in/hoping to make money on a new technology that has not proven itself yet. Making estimations on pricing before the technology even had a chance to prove itself, based on an analysis of 1 transaction, is a questionable approach imho. If that is your approach, then you should maybe find other, safer investment opportunities.

crazyivan

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I see no problem with Factom for now, besides the fact I d like to see more involvement from the team here. However, I see Brian s been present on a daily basis communicating with the community so this problem might be solved as well.

Other then that, opening store s been a big move forward and since we ve been told Milestone 2 s just around the corner, let us please focus on the good stuff. If you dont believe in this project, well, you know what to do.

MyFarm

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 11:07:42 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 10:53:03 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Here come the trolls.. Wow. As soon as there is any good news you can count on them to show up in full force and bring their FUD. Definitely time to buy and hold folks. Enough said.

I'm not trolling, as I said, I'm invested for the long haul. If I'm wrong about something, please point it out. I'm presenting my theory based upon the statements of the lead developer.

Or I'd love a Factom employee to explain how I'm wrong. I'd love to be very wrong and pick up some more Factom if it's actually underpriced. But based upon my analysis, it's overpriced at present.

Haha invested, what a joke.. waste of time trying to respond to a paid troll. Your history convicts you my friend. Please go find another incredible coin to troll and maybe you'll have better luck. Likely not. Trolls are so easy to spot these days it's almost hilarious.

http://imgur.com/kZq1yRu - A screenshot from Poloniex

I suspect you've invested more than you should in Factoids. If you're getting that upset, you may want to evaluate how much you're investing into your various cryptocurrencies.

And did you actually read my post history?

Wow you are good! I have invested in Factom and do believe in this team. IMO this is the best time to accumulate. Time will tell if I'm right.

Oh by the way if you think factoids are so 'under valued' because of your fantastic analysis why don't you sell now and buy back cheaper.

Because I'm an investor, not a trader. I create an entry position and then continue to buy on the way up as fundamentals support increased prices. If fundamentals don't support increased prices, I don't buy. Right now, I don't see the fundamentals supporting the price. Hiding that fact won't change much as the market always finds the fair price.

MyFarm

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Activity: 854

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: MyFarm on March 30, 2016, 10:53:03 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Here come the trolls.. Wow. As soon as there is any good news you can count on them to show up in full force and bring their FUD. Definitely time to buy and hold folks. Enough said.

I'm not trolling, as I said, I'm invested for the long haul. If I'm wrong about something, please point it out. I'm presenting my theory based upon the statements of the lead developer.

Or I'd love a Factom employee to explain how I'm wrong. I'd love to be very wrong and pick up some more Factom if it's actually underpriced. But based upon my analysis, it's overpriced at present.

Haha invested, what a joke.. waste of time trying to respond to a paid troll. Your history convicts you my friend. Please go find another incredible coin to troll and maybe you'll have better luck. Likely not. Trolls are so easy to spot these days it's almost hilarious.

http://imgur.com/kZq1yRu - A screenshot from Poloniex

I suspect you've invested more than you should in Factoids. If you're getting that upset, you may want to evaluate how much you're investing into your various cryptocurrencies.

And did you actually read my post history?

MyFarm

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ?? on ??

Here come the trolls.. Wow. As soon as there is any good news you can count on them to show up in full force and bring their FUD. Definitely time to buy and hold folks. Enough said.

I'm not trolling, as I said, I'm invested for the long haul. If I'm wrong about something, please point it out. I'm presenting my theory based upon the statements of the lead developer.

Or I'd love a Factom employee to explain how I'm wrong. I'd love to be very wrong and pick up some more Factom if it's actually underpriced. But based upon my analysis, it's overpriced at present.

jaxxx

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Well fuck you then.

What do you guys think the market will do in the next couple weeks?

MyFarm

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Quote from: SyRenity on March 30, 2016, 08:24:53 PM

I well understand how it works for Factom, ensuring they and their clients will never reach a position where the Factoid are prohibitively expensive to buy off market.

What I don't understand is how the increased adoption benefits us the coin holders, as any temporary price increase will be always balanced downwards (the more EC's used and more Factoids are burnt / purchased, the more the increased EC/Factoid exchange rate will push the price back).

I love this project and have invested a little for the LONG haul, but the fact is, Factoids are horrendously overpriced at present. How do I know this? From Brian Deery's post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/factom/comments/47nyx0/thoughts_of_the_economic_model_of_factom_and/d0gqwdz

Quote from: Brian

The Factoids also are a reward to the servers to pay for engineering time, server, and bandwidth costs. The current market price of ~1$ roughly corresponds to a steady state prediction of about 800 gigabytes/year being added to the system or about 27 TPS.

1 entry credit allows you to enter up to 1kb of data according to the store here: https://www.factom.com/entry-credits/

What that means, is that at a Factoid price of $1.00, 800 gigs a year allow for 800,000,000+ entry credits to be used. If you look at the blockchain, on 10/05/2016 they entered Project Gutenberg into the chain which consisted of over 22,000 books. Not single documents, but BOOKS. By my rough count, 22,000 books used up around 20,000 entry credits.

If I'm correct, and I believe I am, this means Factoids are pretty darn overpriced right now. Sad

At a current price of $1.70, that means we're looking at needing to use 1,360,000,000 entry credits.

The Bitcoin Co-op

legendary

Activity: 1268

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Increasing the EC/FCT exchange rate drives the price up, not down. Factoids will be worth more Entry Credits, each of which is worth $0.001

SyRenity

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I well understand how it works for Factom, ensuring they and their clients will never reach a position where the Factoid are prohibitively expensive to buy off market.

What I don't understand is how the increased adoption benefits us the coin holders, as any temporary price increase will be always balanced downwards (the more EC's used and more Factoids are burnt / purchased, the more the increased EC/Factoid exchange rate will push the price back).

The Bitcoin Co-op

legendary

Activity: 1268

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It's really mind boggling how many people cannot understand the economics of Factom--it's not that complicated. I can totally understand why the team doesn't answer every single question, because the info is already out there.

Factoids become redeemable for more EC's as they go up in value, yes, but they are generated at a constant rate. More Entry Credits used = more Factoids burned = supply dwindles. If Factoids didn't become worth more entry credits, the supply could dry up completely. As they go up in value, the number of number of EC's that must be used in order to affect the supply increases. It approaches infinity as the FCT supply approaches zero. But a Factoid's EC equivalent will never increase fast enough to necessarily guarantee a stable supply.

SyRenity

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Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 06:43:21 PM

The servers adjust the number of ECs a factoids buys based on the market price of factoids. The servers can keep it at $0.001/Kib, regardless of the factoid market price.

https://medium.com/@BrianDeery/i-love-negative-feedback-632f8ee780ff

Thanks for the clarification. So in nutshell, the current traded FCT price is almost completely disconnected from the actual service value, as the servers can always negate any scarcity or price increase to keep costs constant for the end-customers?

What is the basis to FCT value then, beyond the regular market speculations (and I don't think the Google share price in article is a correct comparison, as we can not expect periodic dividends or a windfall in case Factom gets M&A).

BrianDeery

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Quote from: SyRenity on March 30, 2016, 06:35:37 PM

Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 01:22:00 PM

-Factom, inc. processes credit card, pays CC fees, bears chargeback risk. Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market. Factom inc. converts Factoids to ECs and assigns them to the business's address. Factom, inc has a strong incentive to keep the system working.

If in future 800 pound gorillas (like Amazon or FB for example) start to use Factom requiring massive amounts of new records and the Factoid price increases as we all hope, how exactly you going to keep buying these expensive Factoid off the market for these enormous entities? Your customers will basically pay more for same amount of data with every price increase, while in industry it's the opposite (bulk purchases fetch more discount).

The servers adjust the number of ECs a factoids buys based on the market price of factoids. The servers can keep it at $0.001/Kib, regardless of the factoid market price.

https://medium.com/@BrianDeery/i-love-negative-feedback-632f8ee780ff

BrianDeery

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Quote

so actually your negative your own investors or does that sound crazy?

yes, it does. The same number of KiB of data will be purchased if the factoids are burned through the store as if they were burned yourself.

A business will buy the number of entries they need, and pay the amount that makes the most sense for them. you seem to be thinking that they want to spend $X on entries, irrespective of their needs. This does sound crazy.

SyRenity

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Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 01:22:00 PM

-Factom, inc. processes credit card, pays CC fees, bears chargeback risk. Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market. Factom inc. converts Factoids to ECs and assigns them to the business's address. Factom, inc has a strong incentive to keep the system working.

If in future 800 pound gorillas (like Amazon or FB for example) start to use Factom requiring massive amounts of new records and the Factoid price increases as we all hope, how exactly you going to keep buying these expensive Factoid off the market for these enormous entities? Your customers will basically pay more for same amount of data with every price increase, while in industry it's the opposite (bulk purchases fetch more discount).

The Bitcoin Co-op

legendary

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If you don't wanna pay extra for Entry Credits, just burn the Factoids, yourself. Retail price is for noobs and coin-haters who have money, like governments and banks

tempus

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Quote from: crazyivan on March 30, 2016, 03:46:58 PM

Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 01:22:00 PM

Quote

What dissapoint me is that your selling your clients expansive entry coins, and cause its not easy to use they wont use factoids.

I don't think you understand. All Entry Credits are derived from burned Factoids. It doesn't matter if the Factom store burns them when getting a CC order, or by burning Factoids yourself.

Think about this from a business perspective. How would they add data into the system?

1) Buy Bitcoins
-this is a non-trivial step today. Do they issue a PO order? Can they use the department credit card? Both sound like a no. result: No Factom usage. End of project prototyping.

2) Send BTC to exchange and buy Factoids
-Doable as a business, but it would be operating under the radar since corporate accounts are not really a thing. Shapeshift might work too, if it is up at the time.

3) Use wallet to burn Factoids and buy Entry Credits.
-doable, but awkward, as the community knows.

4) Now the business software can use the Entry Credits
-Actual business logic can progress and applications can publish on the platform.

5) Convince legal department + accounting department that the IT department dealing in Bitcoin is not risky for the business.
-Most of the world is still scared of Bitcoin.

or:

1) Use company credit card to buy Entry Credits.
-Factom, inc. processes credit card, pays CC fees, bears chargeback risk. Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market. Factom inc. converts Factoids to ECs and assigns them to the business's address. Factom, inc has a strong incentive to keep the system working.

2) Business software can use the Entry Credits to publish.

Which part about this are you upset about again? This is changing it from impossible to possible for businesses to use Factom.

If you think that we are making too much profit, you are free to setup your own Credit Card merchant account and try to undercut. Complaining about a business taking too much margin without considering overhead means that more research needs to be done.

In option B you state "Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market." What does off the market mean? Where do you buy Factoids?

Exchange for example.

crazyivan

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Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 01:22:00 PM

Quote

What dissapoint me is that your selling your clients expansive entry coins, and cause its not easy to use they wont use factoids.

I don't think you understand. All Entry Credits are derived from burned Factoids. It doesn't matter if the Factom store burns them when getting a CC order, or by burning Factoids yourself.

Think about this from a business perspective. How would they add data into the system?

1) Buy Bitcoins
-this is a non-trivial step today. Do they issue a PO order? Can they use the department credit card? Both sound like a no. result: No Factom usage. End of project prototyping.

2) Send BTC to exchange and buy Factoids
-Doable as a business, but it would be operating under the radar since corporate accounts are not really a thing. Shapeshift might work too, if it is up at the time.

3) Use wallet to burn Factoids and buy Entry Credits.
-doable, but awkward, as the community knows.

4) Now the business software can use the Entry Credits
-Actual business logic can progress and applications can publish on the platform.

5) Convince legal department + accounting department that the IT department dealing in Bitcoin is not risky for the business.
-Most of the world is still scared of Bitcoin.

or:

1) Use company credit card to buy Entry Credits.
-Factom, inc. processes credit card, pays CC fees, bears chargeback risk. Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market. Factom inc. converts Factoids to ECs and assigns them to the business's address. Factom, inc has a strong incentive to keep the system working.

2) Business software can use the Entry Credits to publish.

Which part about this are you upset about again? This is changing it from impossible to possible for businesses to use Factom.

If you think that we are making too much profit, you are free to setup your own Credit Card merchant account and try to undercut. Complaining about a business taking too much margin without considering overhead means that more research needs to be done.

In option B you state "Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market." What does off the market mean? Where do you buy Factoids?

Mrboot

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Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 01:22:00 PM

Quote

What dissapoint me is that your selling your clients expansive entry coins, and cause its not easy to use they wont use factoids.

I don't think you understand. All Entry Credits are derived from burned Factoids. It doesn't matter if the Factom store burns them when getting a CC order, or by burning Factoids yourself.

Think about this from a business perspective. How would they add data into the system?

1) Buy Bitcoins
-this is a non-trivial step today. Do they issue a PO order? Can they use the department credit card? Both sound like a no. result: No Factom usage. End of project prototyping.

2) Send BTC to exchange and buy Factoids
-Doable as a business, but it would be operating under the radar since corporate accounts are not really a thing. Shapeshift might work too, if it is up at the time.

3) Use wallet to burn Factoids and buy Entry Credits.
-doable, but awkward, as the community knows.

4) Now the business software can use the Entry Credits
-Actual business logic can progress and applications can publish on the platform.

5) Convince legal department + accounting department that the IT department dealing in Bitcoin is not risky for the business.
-Most of the world is still scared of Bitcoin.

or:

1) Use company credit card to buy Entry Credits.
-Factom, inc. processes credit card, pays CC fees, bears chargeback risk. Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market. Factom inc. converts Factoids to ECs and assigns them to the business's address. Factom, inc has a strong incentive to keep the system working.

2) Business software can use the Entry Credits to publish.

Which part about this are you upset about again? This is changing it from impossible to possible for businesses to use Factom.

If you think that we are making too much profit, you are free to setup your own Credit Card merchant account and try to undercut. Complaining about a business taking too much margin without considering overhead means that more research needs to be done.

What i mean is that the burn rate is actually way lower then the dollar price your asking so actually your negative your own investors or does that sound crazy?

marechoux

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Quote from: BrianDeery on March 30, 2016, 01:22:00 PM

Quote

What dissapoint me is that your selling your clients expansive entry coins, and cause its not easy to use they wont use factoids.

I don't think you understand. All Entry Credits are derived from burned Factoids. It doesn't matter if the Factom store burns them when getting a CC order, or by burning Factoids yourself.

Think about this from a business perspective. How would they add data into the system?

1) Buy Bitcoins
-this is a non-trivial step today. Do they issue a PO order? Can they use the department credit card? Both sound like a no. result: No Factom usage. End of project prototyping.

2) Send BTC to exchange and buy Factoids
-Doable as a business, but it would be operating under the radar since corporate accounts are not really a thing. Shapeshift might work too, if it is up at the time.

3) Use wallet to burn Factoids and buy Entry Credits.
-doable, but awkward, as the community knows.

4) Now the business software can use the Entry Credits
-Actual business logic can progress and applications can publish on the platform.

5) Convince legal department + accounting department that the IT department dealing in Bitcoin is not risky for the business.
-Most of the world is still scared of Bitcoin.

or:

1) Use company credit card to buy Entry Credits.
-Factom, inc. processes credit card, pays CC fees, bears chargeback risk. Factom inc. buys Factoids off the market. Factom inc. converts Factoids to ECs and assigns them to the business's address. Factom, inc has a strong incentive to keep the system working.

2) Business software can use the Entry Credits to publish.

Which part about this are you upset about again? This is changing it from impossible to possible for businesses to use Factom.

If you think that we are making too much profit, you are free to setup your own Credit Card merchant account and try to undercut. Complaining about a business taking too much margin without considering overhead means that more research needs to be done.

So you confirm that you sell 15 times higher than cost price? You can buy bitcoin with some services, they charge 10-20%, with you business I would understand a 50% profit margin even 200% for small amount, but 15.000% for bulk price...

Topic: [ANN] FACTOM - Introducing Honesty to Record-Keeping - page 350. (Read 2115935 times)