Topic: [ANN] [ICO CLOSED] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy - page 57. (Read 109157 times)

If the InChain platform is closed after selling some bonds nobody will pay the face value and the coupon. Unfortunately, the probability of such event is not 0. Of course, it can happen to any business.

I don't say that DAO will not vote for dividends for sure, I say it is possible. It's quite possible the DAO will vote not to distribute all the profits as dividends but the part of profits only. As you say, we can't know for sure what will happen. We should also take into account the operational expenses of InChain structures (offices, salaries, equipment, etc.).

Do you mean how many Inchain tokens could you get for 1BTC?

Looks interesting, what kind of profit you can anticipate with an investment of 1 BTC?

I have to admit that this is much better, still not apples to apples though.
Also, it would be great if SpacemanOne can split his posts into several smaller ones, otherwise the posts are getting extremely large.

Let’s start with this one.

Your assumption is not clear enough. Why do you think that the majority would vote against the dividends? What this assumption is based on? Obviously, it depends on voting, we can’t know for sure what will happen.

The value of the coins reflects not only the reserves (bottom line intrinsic value) but also the fund performance (fund management) as well as the number of policies sold (insurance business).


Definitely the price of the bond may vary. However, the face value of the bond and coupon rates are certain. At the bond’s maturity date you receive the face value plus the coupon, this is the fundamental nature of any bond as a debt instrument as oppose to shares and currencies.

Regarding your calculations:
1)   You compare a fund with an insurance platform pointing out only advantages of the fund and disadvantages of the platform. For example, I assume that the fund managers will be trading at some cryptoexchanges, so why don’t you add a risk that these exchanges may be compromised and the fund loses its money? Same story with the Ethereum network if the fund invests in ETH. I also would not say that there is no legal risk.

Our goal is not to outperform such a fund but create a platform that can solve one of the most important problem of the crypto ecosystem.

2)   Sorry, I can’t understand what you mean here. What is the connection between our fundraising and dividends?

3)   Same risks as above.

Of course, everybody can invest and manage their portfolios if they have certain skills, enough time and courage. We do not question this at all.

The unique features of our platform are:
-   Insurance policies that can help traders and funds mitigating risks of exchange/wallet hacks (not available now)
-   Fixed income investment instruments (not available now)
-   DAO-like fund management (similar to offered by ICONOMI)
-   Altcoins with bottom line value (not available afaik)
-   A new niche and untapped market.

The advantages of investing in DAO:
-   Nonfinancial: involvement in decision-making process
-   Financial: dividends based on the earnings the platform makes including ROI (the fund) and insurance premiums.

Waiting for next questions 

Let's wait Dmitry 

Okay so i would like to see what the inchain team's response to SpacemanOne. i'd be back later. i like the discussion and the team should at least answer this quick as the start of ICO is fast approaching. The rest of those who got out of ICN, may very well be spending their profit here.

Thank you. I've been watching the crypto industry passively for some time. The ICO boom have captured my attention. The ICO's are interesting for me because the market is young, not regulated absolutely and doesn't have any standards like in the traditional economy. The ICO's open incredible opportunities for small investors never seen before. Anyone can become a shareholder of the real company with $ million turnovers. The crypto industry is growing rapidly and the investment proposals are really great now. We can invest in the future of economy and in our own future.
At the same time the number of projects is enormous and there are many people who just want to have quick money and run. The number of unprofessional or poorly designed projects is big too. ICO founders can gain a lot of money with almost no risk or responsibility at all. So we as potential investors should improve our skills in selecting worthy projects or at least to filter the weak ones. The better skills we as an investment community will have the healthier and faster growing the crypto economy will be.
My work here is a way to introduce myself to the community and to better understand the ICO processes. As I can see many people here are not familiar with the very basics of business or investments. When I see some important details are missed in the ICO discussion I try to pay attention to them.
Thank you for the link, I'm exploring different opportunities of how to better apply my skills and knowledge in the crypto industry.

There's no fixed price. 85 million will be distributed proportionally to the amount raised.


Both are accepted afaik

Yes, let's consider the above situation with the numbers from my market analysis.

1. Some 'outer' fund. ROI = 10%.
Investor profit:
- 10%

Investor initial deposit:
- 100% (Investor has his initial deposit in full)

Waiting time:
- 1 year

Risks:
- fund operator failure (due to the wrong team actions, etc.)
- fund management risks


2. Inchain ICO. Inchain DAO ROI = 10%.

Investor profit:
- 10%
Investor has up to 12% profit max. (operational and other expenses are not included). Let's assume DAO voted for 10% dividends.
Will be less than 10% if the ICO will have more than $1.75M.

Investor initial deposit:
- Unknown. Depends on the token price

Waiting time:
- at least 1.5 years, maybe more. Usually the real project release dates are shifted compared to the timeline.

Risks:
- InChain failure (due to the wrong team actions, etc.)
- fund management risks
- business model risks (market not reached, could not sell enough insurances, etc.)
- project not released
- Ethereum network risks
- Law risks
- etc.


3. Own fund with the same portfolio as the InChain DAO

Investor profit:
- 10%

Investor initial deposit:
- 100% (Investor has his initial deposit in full)

Waiting time:
- 1 year

Risks:
- fund management risks

It's evident the options 1 and 3 are much more safer alternatives. The cost of taking all the risks from the 'Inchain ICO' is 2% max! At the same time, that additional 2% profit is not guaranteed.
I do not take into account the token price change. It is a speculative profit that is not considered by me as an investment profit. The price can be lower or higher than the initial deposit. I'm interested in a relatively stable and long-term income. If I sell my tokens part I lose my further profits part so the token price change is not profitable for me in the long-term. This is my personal approach to the investments.

Nowadays anyone can create a crypto assets fund and issue his own tokens. For example, such a fund can duplicate the InChain DAO fund structure. Investment in this fund can be more safer than the InChain ICO investment (not considering speculations).

My main point is that ICO investors take the risks of the insurance fund performance but don't get all the fund profits - they get the profits part only. And in numbers it looks not very attractive now.
I consider the long-term investment strategy so I don't pay attention to the token price changes. It may be attractive but I can't predict the price or even estimate it. I work with the numbers that I can 'touch'. So I'm interested in dividends. This is my personal approach only.
Speculations can be very profitable but I'm not professional with them.

About the token intrinsic value. The crypto market prices have the speculative nature mostly. So the price will be dependent on the majority mood or expectations. For example, why should I buy the token that didn't pay any dividends? The only reason is that the price will grow. The token price may not increase just because it has some reserve fund behind it. The reserve fund doesn't work for money, it doesn't give any additional value. The reserve fund can be stolen or the DAO can decide to use it in some non-profitable way.
People should be convinced the company business goes well and can produce a stable profit. If it doesn't produce profit to its current investors why should new investors appear?
Yes, the token price can grow because the reserve fund helps to avoid critical situations. But it won't grow proportionally to the reserves amount.
In general the price formation is very complex and has many other factors of influence except intrinsic value.

I don't agree. At the non-transparent traditional markets it may be. But if at a certain moment the insurance fund shows some loss and the reserve fund can't cover it (everything can be seen in the blockchain) the bonds price will drop immediately.

what will be the price per INC?

pay in ETH or BTC?

In short, the bonds may be not attractive because they are derivatives of the InChain insurance fund but with a limited profit and additional risks.

At the same time the bonds may be interesting uder certain conditions.
At first I will review the bonds properties based on InChain financial model without the reserve fund ($1M).
The fixed income instrument is not really 'fixed' income. If the insurance fund fails (it is quite possible in the highly volatile crypto market) the income may be less than the announced coupon value. Additionally, the income has a limit and can't be more than the coupon value. And if the insurance fund succeeds with big profits they won't be sent to the bond holders but to the project itself.
In general, the bond profits:
- limited up to a certain limit
- depend heavily on the insurance fund performance (for more than 60% with 3% and 10% numbers)
- can be less than the coupon value

The bond risks:
- include hack risks (the exchanges/wallets that are under insurance)
- include insurance fund performance risks
- include InChain operation failures risks

Let's compare investing in bonds and in InChain insurance fund (or any other fund with the same portfolio)

- bonds profits are limited, fund profits are not limited
- bonds risks include hack risks and fund performance risks, fund risks include fund performance risks only
- bonds can be 3% better than fund if the fund fails and there are no hacks

In other words, when we purchase some bonds we limit our profits for the price of gaining +3% yearly ROI. And those 3% advantage is not guaranteed! As you know 3% yearly ROI for the crypto market is not meaningful at all.

I think this is not an equal exchange and investing in the fund with the same structure as InChain insurance fund is overall better than purchasing bonds.

The reserve fund can change the situation partially. If investors can check the reserve fund amount and make sure it can cover the potential insurance fund losses there may be some bond buyers. But the reserve fund is controlled by the DAO and its use is not defined yet.
At the current stage I can't make better estimations without the numbers (coupon rate and insurance premium).

Another thing that can attract bond investors is the coupon rate. For example, if it is 50% you can have many buyers I suppose.

The difficult part here is that the insurance fund should perform better than the crypto market in general because the fund should return profits in BTC, not in USD. Maintaining a good ROI in BTC is a more difficult task than USD profit I suppose.

My personal opinion is that at the current fast growing crypto market where 50% or even 100%  and more early ROI is not a problem such instruments as bonds won't have a big market share.

Register pls your participation as described: https://medium.com/@inchain/translation-campaign-details-448afa21179b
Other users must see which languages already booked.

Here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-ico-inchain-1635960
Was posted on October 4th. I am still doing the Whitepaper.

I think so, let me clarify it

Hi, sorry. Did you register here? : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1upkIGm3giNKmke90TrKrtyqEkakjPnb0LPnoQhLVCvk

I don't see Hindi there...

ok tanks, slot full?

Hey, I have already done the Hindi (Indian) translation. We had talked in PM.

Hi, looks here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1upkIGm3giNKmke90TrKrtyqEkakjPnb0LPnoQhLVCvk
Indian is not booked.