Topic: [ANN] Peerplays - First Ever Blockchain-Based Gaming Platform - page 22. (Read 1144140 times)

I don't have my public key, only private. How do I check my balance?

I think you will be able to redeem PPL on or around May 30th.

Who knows when CMC will list PPL, but generally Gliss is pretty quick to add coins that have high market caps and interest... and hopefully PPL will fit into that category! 

Just a quick question: When will we be able to redeem our PPL and is the peerplay client needed to send tokens?
And when can we expect to get PPL listed on cmc?

@Easternbloc

You make some decent points, but I don't agree with your overall assessment of Peerplays (which seems to be that it is a dead end project.)

Re: Live betting

Speed Concerns: dPoS is a highly efficient consensus algorithm. dPoS blockchains have irreversible transactions after 60 seconds (with 30 witnesses and 3 seconds per block). This amount of time is sufficiently fast enough to enable a lot (majority?) of bets that can be conceived for live betting. In slower sports such as Baseball or American Football, pretty much any conceivable live bets would be possible.

Data Feed Concerns: I think that you understate the availability of free live statistics for sporting events on the internet which can be sourced from non-gambling related websites. Sure, the data will not be as instant or detailed as the data that the live sports betting giants have access to, but it will be possible nonetheless to have a "dumbed down" live betting market.

Market Share Concerns: Even though implementing live betting will certainly be hard (or in your words- impossible), there is still quite a big gambling market outside of live sports betting. The Bookie dApp covers only one facet of the gambling industry. 1% of a trillion dollar industry can still make a lot of money for Peerplays shareholders. I'm not only talking about non-live sports betting, but also regular sports betting, prediction markets, casino games, and slots. I think you are focusing too much on sports betting, which does indeed pigeon hole the project if that is all they planned to implement. But I think their plans are much bigger than only sports betting.

Re: Slots

You seem to be under the misconception that slot games are impossible to concept on a decentralized peer to peer blockchain. I think that you are wrong. Effectively, for a slots game all you would need is your own blockchain (or sidechain), and a cryptographic protocol to autonomously generate random numbers, autonomously "police" the game, and autonomously control the house's bank roll. Modern-day slot machines are in essence just fancy RNGs. I will explain how a peer to peer slot game could work. A similar system can be utilized to implement any game of chance you could conceive (casino card games, slots, etc.)

Leverage a network of Masternodes (or delegates) to generate random numbers. Each of them puts up collateral so they have something at stake to participate honestly for a percentage of what the house wins over the long term. The more Masternodes (or delegates) that are included on the generation of one random number results in the random number being more secure (more likely to be random) and less efficiently generated, and the less number of Masternodes (or delegates) that are included on the generation of one random number results in the random number being less secure (less likely to be random) but more efficiently generated. A happy medium can be found through beta testing as far as security versus efficiency.

As long as one participant that participates in the generation of any one certain random number is honest, then the number generated will be truly and provably random. This can be done using multiple very basic and studied cryptographic protocols, such as the ones proposed here: https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/412/verify-product-without-revealing-multipliers/10553

Split the total supply of the blockchain in two parts, one part will be autonomously controlled by peers in the network on behalf of the house, and the other part will be distributed to shareholders and gamblers. This creates a bankroll that is autonomously controlled for the house, and tokens that investors can invest in and gamblers can buy to gamble with.

Let's take for example a very simple slots game whose jackpot has 0.032% chance of hitting (5 reels with 5 symbol with 1 line), then we can expect to hit the jackpot in the long run once every 3125 spins. Generally, top tier jackpots are somewhere around 90% to 95% percent of the amount of spins it will take on average to hit them, so, let's say we pay out 95%  of the total spins it takes to hit the jackpot of the long run for every 1 coin wagered (or 2967.80 coins). Now that we know the odds of winning the jackpot, and the amount we will payout if the jackpot is hit, we can now calculate our EV (expected value from each spin as the house):

99.968% of the time the house wins the user's bet amount of 1 coin.
0.032% of the time the gambler wins the jackpot winning 2966.80 coins (the 2967.80 coin jackpot, minus 1 coin he wagered to win it)

The house's EV = [99.968% (chance of winning)  * 1 coin (profit if the house win)] + [0.032% (chance of losing) * -2966.80 coins  (profit if the house loses)]
0.99968 -  0.949376 = The houses EV from each 1 coin spin = 0.050304 per coin wagered

This equates to a house edge of 5.0304%. Thus, following the Kelly Criterion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion), the house should never risk more than 5.0304% of our bankroll for every spin the gamblers do. Delegates will continuously publish price feeds of the Peerplay token value (or a Peerplay sidechain) as in Bitshares, and the median price feed is used to then calculate the max bet. After every spin, this max bet is continuously calculated and updated.

Say the autonomously controlled house bankroll is worth $1,000,000 and each coin is worth $1. Following the kelly criterion for optimal bankroll growth, the max win should be 5.0304% of our bankroll- or $50,304. Since 1 spin can possibly 2966.8x the gambler's money, the max bet would be $50,304 divided by 2966.8 which equates to a 16.95564244303627 coin max bet. To account for blockchain confirmation and network propagation delays, the max bet can be further reduced to stay on the safe side.

Once the autonomously controlled house bankroll grows above $1,000,000, gamblers/shareholders that own the other $1,000,000 half of the coin supply can vote what happens with the profits. They can choose for the profit to be paid in dividends to gamblers/investors, or for the surplus to be added to the autonomous house bankroll which results in the allowance of slowly increasing the maximum bet. There are benefits to both choices. In the former, profits made by the house are immediately paid out to investors/gamblers. With the latter, profits can increase over time as the maximum bet increases and whales come along to utilize the increasing maximum bet limits.

In summary... slot games, card gambling games, etc, are all possible in a decentralized peer to peer manner. I think that it is the intention that after Bookie is released, Peerplays will go after other gambling markets since sports betting is only one facet of a bigger overall industry.

Re: Marketing

You argue that since Peerplays doesn't have a huge marketing budget it will go no where. However, you failed to deduce that cryptocurrencies (or DACs) work differently from centralized privately controlled companies. Bitcoin, Ethereum, Ripple, NEM, and Litecoin have generated >$1 billion evaluations with no marketing budget. The answer is simple... cryptocurrencies are marketed by word of mouth and the network effect. By allowing people to invest in a cryptocurrency or DAC, they are then sure to at least tell a few people about their investment. One of these people invest themselves and tell three of their friends. This network effect grows parabolically as more people hear about it and invest, or when gamblers share how little house edge there is, how the games are provably fair, and how they don't have to worry about shady centralized/offshore gambling companies (many of which have took the money and ran or operated on fractional reserves and eventually imploded.)

Furthermore, once the media starts picking up and investing in the cryptocurrency or DAC themselves, this parabolic curve intensifies. Once Peerplays has a working product, assuming it is the first to market in the cryptocurrency industry, then I venture to say it will get a lot of attention from gambling-oriented media.

Re: Gambling Industry Experience

It is more important that the Peerplays DEVELOPMENT team have the technological chops to implement their ideas. The business part will figure itself out through community involvement and user feedback. I'm sure they have general business experience anyways, and with enough time spent researching any industry is digestible. There are a lot of great minds around, and as long as the developers digest and consider what is brought to their attention, then I think there are no problems there.

Re: The Chinese Market

I think that you bring up a good point about the Chinese market and their superstitions. Similar to Bitshares, since Peerplays is built on Graphene tech, different front ends will be fairly easy to implement. So, a frontend in Chinese with all of the proper colors and such won't be too hard. Did you know that Bitshares and Graphene tech is pretty popular in China compared to most other ALT coins? I expect some of this popularity to trickle down to Peerplays. bitCNY historically has a higher market cap and daily volume than bitUSD by a long shot (for instance- today bitCNY has $608k volume and bitUSD only has $208k.) Also the Chinese account for a large amount of activity and volume in Bitshares. For instance, today China accounts for about $23 million of Bitshares' $38.8 million total volume. Bitshares is one of the most popular ALT coins in China, if not THE most popular one. The Chinese subforum on Bitsharestalk has 38,749 Posts
in 3471 Topics... I am sure a decent amount of the Chinese Bitshares community invested in the ICO and will have incentive to garner local interest.

Just to reply to a few points:

1. sports gambling is actually just as complicated in some regards to blockchain technically. Professional gambling syndicates that drive the global pricing market through asia and exchanges like Betfair use armies of quants, monte-carlo & markhov chain simulations to predict the best inferred probabilities of the market. The three largest gambling syndicates in the world rake in around £100m a year in profits. The knowledge they bring to the market trickles down through all the brands and pricing offered by every book. This is soccer gambling. To under estimate the complexities surrounding this operationally is a huge mistake.
2. The largest turnover area for sportsbetting globally is through live-betting, so this is making an in-game bet. This may not be how US bettors see the market but Bet365, the largest sportsbetting operator in the world ($1.8bn turnover in 2016) makes 75% of their profit during live betting. In order to facilitate live betting using decentralised blockchain will be impossible, the reason being that you need to use realtime data to run these markets efficiently and with integrity. In order to collect this data that drives 100% of all in-play betting across ALL sportsbetting brands globally you need scouted data from inside the stadium. Three companies pay tens of millions to sports associations to have this data to sell to the gambling industry officially. IMG and Sportradar, for example, have $100m contracts with ATP (tennis) and NBA (Basketball) for this very reason. They in-turn resell this data to sport betting companies to use in their automated, trading algorithmic betting engines. This speed and integrity of data is not available to scrape on the every day web, especially for tennis. The companies are forbidden from selling any data to gambling companies that have no licenses. The only betting markets that could be driven by peerplays would be non-live events, which may be ok for the US market, but is useless for a global market, especially in Asia and Europe, that expect to be offered live markets and events to bet on. The argument will come back that oracles will be used to push this level of data but its impossible to parse all this data real-time without the help of the official data resellers.
3. China has the worlds biggest gambling market, you just need to google it. Its obvious. All of this market is online. When i refer to slots i refer to online slots and all the gambling i refer to is in regards to online.
4. In Asia many gamblers use agents because as sad as it sounds, gambling is scourge on most Asian societies, especially in China. Gambling is related in China to superstition, fortune and luck. Many agents facilitate credit down to their end users to bypass the need for constant payments and the biggest guys that bet as VIP's (massive turnover) also use the credit system. They have and agreed limit and will normally settle on that threshold every Monday. Bitcoin sportsbooks have definitely been a great new avenue to cut out some of the agents - mainly Japanese market - but the unformalised structure in China (generally run by triads) is deeply embedded in the culture and society. As i mentioned technology needs to be able to localise its product to fit certain markets - as any brand, for any product needs to. Time after time European operators, who are much more sophisticated technologically and operationally have tried to take on China but failed every time because they do not understand the culture and localisation needed to adapt to this market. There are currently 3000 sportsbook brands in China and in order for peerplays to make any global impression it needs to take this market seriously and not just really solely on tech.
5. I think many backers of Peerplays are potentially from markets where the gambling market is hidden or immature for online. I would regard the US and Canada as prime examples. In contrast to European users the experience of gambling online will feel archaic but when you look at Betfair, which is essentially its self a technology company that focuses on gambling they are already looking at blockchain technologies. Don't take for granted that these huge sportsbetting companies that have to handle 100k's transactions and bets per minute are in the dark about technology. Bet365, for example, is now entirely built on Erlang (the same language Whatsapp uses) to give customers all over the world the exact same QoS. They are all working on projects and with partners that are looking at centralised blockchains, like Ripple etc. Bet365 reinvests circa $20m - $30m a year back into their IT infrastructure.
6. I question the structure of the ICO but i feel the developers of Peerplay are probably genuinely trying to have an honest stab at this market but i think their approach is naive in regards to operations, regulations / legalities (we are even yet to see what the US gov will say about ICO's actually being legal themselves yet - Ontario has already said anything not-capped sub $5m could be problematic legally) and the complexities of a global sports betting market.
7. Peerplays could be a great technological accelerator platform for many sports betting companies, i agree. Graphene looks to be a great blockchain to help accelerate the scalability of small operators who are languishing on poor and out dated platforms but they haven't identified this as an aim. As previously mentioned many existing gambling companies are already looking at non coin based ledgers already.
8. These are my opinions, i do not know about any telegram chat room. I generally only use the gambling forums here where i try to explain gambling, probabilities and highlight how bad the current crop of bitcoin platforms are. I know there is certainly vast room for improvement for betting for crpyto users, i just don't agree that DAPPS are the way forward for this space. I do though think the Gnosis solution is a much better business structure. Their white paper, members of their team and experience would give me a much stronger sentiment that they will succeed to some extent.

Can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it so you DON'T have to give up your private keys?

Just ask for a specific message to be signed in order to claim it instead. Those who used the private key for other ICOs run the risk of losing them all.

Thanks.

A couple of the people mentioned in the OP have a very impressive resume with regards to their telecommunications and Blockchain background.  That is in the OP.  Whether or not they have any experience in sports betting or the gambling sector, their experience does not preclude past interest in the industry nor does it suggest that they are incapable of it.  In fact, I live in an area where Native American casino's are all the rage (one just sprung up and a few more are slated in the next few years).  They are profitable and their owners, the respective Tribes, arguably knew nothing about the gambling sector prior to becoming profitable.  So I am unsure that the resumes one should be interested in should be focused solely on sports betting and gambling.  In fact, I would prefer to see massive experience in tech because this is new and different ground that relies on tech.


If you would like to debate, then please provide numbers.  As far as I know, the sports betting estimations I have seen are exclusive of slot machines and thusly that argument doesn't mean anything.  Slots in US casino's are also huge and take up a large portion of casino real estate in brick and mortars.  But no one here is talking about them because they're irrelevant for the purpose of Peerplays.


True.  But are they prepared to handle decentralization?  Westerners can already communicate with them via WeChat and upcoming decentralization efforts will increase that, despite their efforts (Maidsafe comes to mind but there are others).  The Chinese can also still buy BTC.  I am unsure why you brought this up.  If anything, Peerplays incentivizes enduser participation because the Chinese government cannot enforce the laws in every other country when decentralized behavior is occurring. Hence, it doesn't matter.  Let them stop nodes.  Others will spring up and nodes in countries that they have no jurisdiction will remain.


Interesting point and one I am familiar with...but I also don't think it is of the import that it needs to be considered here...for many reasons that would result us in getting into a cultural discussion that centers on Theology/Non secular societies.  


This is an argument that I have seen before when discussing the decentralized nature of communication and dissent.  I've never heard the term zealot before but it should be considered that BTC itself still hasn't been shut out of the global audience.  There really hasn't been a 'non licensed gambling company' that was decentralized and black listed.  We're in uncharted waters here and the laws regarding crypto currencies as it pertains to gambling are still unclear.  Many laws preventing gambling, at least in the US, prevent centralized institutions from participation (meaning it is actually legal to gamble in the US online)...meaning that I can't get a credit card company or bank to support it.  As much as technicalities are a pain in the ass, they are relevant - and in this case, there is nothing stopping me as a US citizen from using BTC to gamble.  In fact, the 2006 law that many people point to in order to prove that gambling is illegal in the US is mostly misinterpreted.  It's a law that prevents banks from moving funds from a source where illegal betting may have occurred.  In addition, all of the laws in the US focus on servers located in the US.

This is a very long and convoluted topic, as you can see, but to save having to write a few more paragraphs at this point, I'll mention that current laws aren't centered upon the individual (except maybe a few state laws and the worst case of individual prosecution that I have heard about was a $500 fine for an individual who won more than $100K in North Dakota) and don't even come close to mentioning crypto currencies.  The mess regarding Daily Fantasy is precisely predicated on the fact that it is not mentioned in the legislation...which is why technicality of law is important.


Maybe they want to work before they talk more.  Many of the wildly successful crypto ICO's (I'm looking at 15 minute sellouts here) still have nothing to show and aren't functional.  Speculative only.  I'll leave this point to speak for itself.


No need to be condescending.  I think that the biggest thing I have noticed is that people don't take the time to read more.  I am sure many do but the idea of this project spans through multiple discussion forums and projects.  I had no idea that the BTStalk forums were so active when this thread was first posted.  Just the simple fact alone that the founders originated their is grounds to extrapolate that they are not in it for the quick anything and that the project is anything but something that should be considewred solely speculative.  Even if not, there are many other indications.  While I will agree that I am not an expert on gambling or even crypto currency; I will concede that point; I don't think that there isn't enough information here.  They have been transparent weekly through the BTCTalks and have searchable reputations.

Whether Peerplays works or not?  I don't know.  But I really like the idea of Eight being released in August as a means to display the Unity engine and allow dev API access.  Then we have Bookie being released.  Peerplays, from what I have observed, has moved in a few different directions with the intention of releasing multiple aspects while others start defining what rhetoric they will use for their project announcements.

If you were investing in an energy firm you'd hope to see people on the team who had VAST experience working in that sector, regardless of the technology, because ultimately knowing your product and your end user is the most important factor in making a successful enterprise. Not ONE SINGLE member of the peerplays team has ANY experience of the sports betting or gambling sector (at least the guys at Gnosis actually ran Fairlay for a years to get their feet wet). How has that not caused red-flags to every single investor in this? It is alarmingly stupid. Do you guys know that the majority of all gambling turnover comes from Chinese market and the majority of this is based upon slot games. The turnover is vast and we already see the Chinese government taking a very keen interest in BTC to stop capital flight. Peerplays tells you that they are aimed at the "global" market but every market is different and has different tastes and in China even having the wrong colours on your website for gambling will put people off because superstition and tradition is still far more important to people than the technology platform they are using.

Regarding the European market, first of all its regulated harder than any other jurisdiction in the world and no doubt each gambling commission will start to draft their own licensing laws in tandem with their local governments regarding the policing of this space. As we see with all other non-licensed gambling companies they have their IP's black listed, blocked and fines imposed. Unless Peerplays adheres to that licensing structure they also will face that situation and as sad as it sounds to decentralised zealots the ISP's are centralised, regulated and government controlled. This brings me on to my next point: marketing.

Where the hell is Peerplays marketing plan? Clearly its hype and word of mouth. That didn't get a single gambling company anywhere. The average cost to get a foothold in the UK gambling market is circa $25m a year on a budget so dream on etc... The two main approaches are affiliates and using sponsorship. Affiliation on this peerplays platform is impossible so some other service companies will have to build CRM's to facilitate this, in a smart way, on top of the platform but that goes against the whole decentralisation ethos. Regarding sponsorship, if you look at the whole of the English Premier League you will see vast swathes of team shirts with Asian betting sponsors. The reason for this is because of the succes of this league in Asian countries. It is the most watched league on Earth. This gives you marketing access to huge numbers of potential customers but most importantly it gives your brand integrity which is fundamental to access to Asian customers. Some people will argue, rightly, that provably fair gambling is the best thing for integrity but human beings dont work like this en masse (look at Trump being president). In order to sponsor such a team for your brand you legally have to have a UK gaming license so pretty much mass marketing is impossible for peerplay to the worlds biggest market of customers of sportsbetting.

Concerning the US, well there is a reason why every single sports book from 5Dimes to Betcris, that offers bitcoin, is hiding in Costa Rica with indictment charges from the US federal government so i think we are clear about the US standpoint. Look at the mess that is Daily Fantasy here in the US to understand those complexities and then having to route your FIAT through the US payment system if you do actually want to convert, er no thanks. There's a reason Big Joe on the corner is taking your bets.

I'm sure most people will disagree with me because you are all gambling experts by pulling quotes off the internet that gambling is "booming" and im sure i will be wrong on various things but I see hardly any sensical and experienced debate for this past and second (seriously dubious from my perspective regarding the ICO structure also) ICO but a debate is something i want to stimulate. I agree the bitshares exchange and other similar technologies will be a disruptor but i wouldn't be investing in an energy company my local bar man just started. There's a term called gamblers fallacy and thinking technology is the only thing that will drive this products success is certainly that. Sell while you can.

Thank you. When is this planned to happen? How much will Peerplays will I get for 1 Token?

PEERPLAYS   UIA holders will be able to claim their distributed PPY Tokens by    uploading their    private key from the   
BitShares account that holds   their   PEERPLAYS   UIAs   into   their   new   Peerplays account upon the launch of the   Peerplays   
blockchain.      

Hello! I had my tokens on the exchange. How can I redeem them?

This is the first ICO I have participated in- ever. I don't usually like to take the risk of ICOs, but I see this being really popular if the roadmap is implemented in a decent timeframe. Also, I am somewhat familiar with the team developing this from the Bitshares community.

I hope that you guys can produce what you envisioned!

Good luck!

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean. 
Why "BEFORE"?
Could you elaborate? please

I invested a bit last night.  I originally invested a pretty significant chunk in the pre-sale, only to sell out for the ridiculous prices the token was getting on the BTS exchange.   This token is basically the reason why I have what I have now in crypto.  For that reason, I had to get back in.  Not as significant of an investment this time, but a few hundred will be good to hold.   

00:00:00:00 Crowdfund end!

Congratulations to all.

https://youtu.be/vqBsu3-4uqE

The global online sports betting and gaming market is continuing to boom.
The growth of the entire online sector has been more than impressive: In 2010, the global revenues of online gaming and betting amounted to about USD 30.3bn.
By the end of 2018, the market could nearly double in size to USD 59.1bn.

According to reliable forecasts, the market is expected to grow by a compound annual growth rate of 10.6% between 2015 and 2018.

https://www.bet-at-home.ag/en/bah/market

The global online gambling and betting market is expected to reach US$96.89 bn by the end of 2024. The market is projected to expand at a CAGR of 10.8% from 2016 to 2024. By the end of 2016, the global online gambling and betting market is expected to reach US$42.63 bn.

http://www.transparencymarketresearch.com/online-gambling-betting.html