[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency - page 134.

NothinG

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Does anyone know how to determine the transaction size (for the cost of the transaction) before the transaction is sent?
or...does anyone know if the fee for the transaction is included in the transaction itself?

Sunny King

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Quote from: FlipPro on August 24, 2012, 03:25:07 PM

Have you considered changing the name of this coin? I think it should go up for a vote, because PPC is honestly a terrible name.

I think the site looks awful. Why use a map of San Andres (video game) with the terrible navigation bar?

Shall we setup a bounty for a web designer to build us a respectable site?

Also why have a cap at all? Do you think it has any play in the psychological mindset of people? I think it would be better if we removed the cap all together and let the "coin" (we should get rid of the word coin all together) determine it's appropriate inflationary/deflationary rate at that given point in time, less scamish IMHO. The Bitcoins cap has been it's biggest anchor and it's number one facilitator at the same time.

I for one am tired of the radical swings, and some of the shady people who cling on to these type of economic "ideals", and would love to support a respectable, stable, and decentralized currency. PPC has the potential to be that, but not without going through a couple of hoops first.

- Name is fixed and can no longer be changed. Let's leave it at that. It was meant to mean peer-to-peer, see the coin symbol, two P's connected.
- I made the website myself as I don't have a lot of time for that so maybe some folks don't like it. No I am not a graphic artist lol but I thought it was fairly cute.
- I am not sure what you are getting at about Bitcoin's cap though. If you think that Bitcoin's economic model counts as 'radical' then I cannot help you as PPCoin's inflation model is designed with the same principles behind Bitcoin, as we mentioned in the design paper. Inflation/deflation models are considered sacrosanct and will not be touched.

Best Regards,

FlipPro

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Quote from: Sunny King on August 24, 2012, 08:38:39 AM

Quote from: FlipPro on August 23, 2012, 11:56:09 PM

Let me say this publicly.

PPC is an AWESOME idea...

It's what many here have been advocating, for a very long time.

(name could be much better though),

forum on PPC site should also be put up asap... Let me know if you guys need any help hosting a good forum..

Thanks for the compliment. Although we don't plan maintaining our own forum in the foreseeable future. I will point the forum link to bitcointalk alt subforum at least for the first 3 months of ppcoin network, most likely a lot longer.

In the future if we survive and demand is really high I would certainly appreciate users like you maintaining an independent forum but right now I think it's kinda wasting resources. You can certainly help in other ways such as reading more about our design, help answering questions to new users and reporting problems/attacks.

Best Regards,

Have you considered changing the name of this coin? I think it should go up for a vote, because PPC is honestly a terrible name.

I think the site looks awful. Why use a map of San Andres (video game) with the terrible navigation bar?

Shall we setup a bounty for a web designer to build us a respectable site?

Also why have a cap at all? Do you think it has any play in the psychological mindset of people? I think it would be better if we removed the cap all together and let the "coin" (we should get rid of the word coin all together) determine it's appropriate inflationary/deflationary rate at that given point in time, less scamish IMHO. The Bitcoins cap has been it's biggest anchor and it's number one facilitator at the same time.

I for one am tired of the radical swings, and some of the shady people who cling on to these type of economic "ideals", and would love to support a respectable, stable, and decentralized currency. PPC has the potential to be that, but not without going through a couple of hoops first.

Sunny King

legendary

Activity: 1205

Merit: 1010

Quote from: FlipPro on August 23, 2012, 11:56:09 PM

Let me say this publicly.

PPC is an AWESOME idea...

It's what many here have been advocating, for a very long time.

(name could be much better though),

forum on PPC site should also be put up asap... Let me know if you guys need any help hosting a good forum..

Thanks for the compliment. Although we don't plan maintaining our own forum in the foreseeable future. I will point the forum link to bitcointalk alt subforum at least for the first 3 months of ppcoin network, most likely a lot longer.

In the future if we survive and demand is really high I would certainly appreciate users like you maintaining an independent forum but right now I think it's kinda wasting resources. You can certainly help in other ways such as reading more about our design, help answering questions to new users and reporting problems/attacks.

Best Regards,

Etlase2

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Sunny King on August 24, 2012, 08:07:54 AM

- proof-of-excellence is a system concept we discovered as an alternative to proof-of-stake. but it is not implemented in ppcoin

Then why mention it in the whitepaper? It only serves to confuse.

Quote

- proof-of-work mint formula is: difficulty == (9999 / (mint per block)) ** 4

I thought difficulty determines mint per block? Or what does mint per block mean?

Quote

- purpose of proof-of-stake is to replace proof-of-work functions. first it's generation is made hard like proof-of-work, with the hashing scheme, taking the block generation function of proof-of-work. this is core part of the protocol, and it's called kernel for good reasons. target is adjusted similar to proof-of-work so this alleviates your concern about depletion of coin age as proof-of-stake difficulty would be lowered in that situation. then in our v0.2 reorganization is switching to a scoring based on proof-of-stake difficulty which closely resembles Satoshi's formula and providing strong protection to the network. in summary proof-of-stake has completely replaced all functions of proof-of-work except for minting.

I'm sure I don't completely understand it, but again, why is this better than just using coin age consumed? What advantages does it offer? Perhaps there would be less energy consumption than just using coin age consumed, but I don't think that that is a given. And people who wish to participate in stake holding must not spend or transfer their coins. Hard to say how it would work out.

Sunny King

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Quote from: Etlase2 on August 24, 2012, 05:25:31 AM

Why must the code be read to understand the coin distribution system and possibly whatever "proof-of-excellence" is?

There is nothing in the paper nor the wiki detailing these things. At least nowhere near satisfactorily. 16x cuts the reward in half, so does 8x cut it by 25%? Is this increase permanent, even if difficulty lowers? Does the starting difficulty make sense in this scenario?

You talk about "consumed coin age" in the paper, but why is proof-of-stake even necessary with this mechanic? I've talked about it in several other threads, and really all you're accomplishing is giving an incentive for people with wealth to make transactions and consume their coin age to create a proof-of-stake block. But with consumed coin age as you call it, it already does this. What additional protection does the stake really offer? It seems possible that at certain points no one will be able to create proof-of-stake blocks (or choose not to) if no one can consume enough coin age, so proof-of-work will have to take over or everyone will have to wait a potentially long time before a new block. If PoW is your backup anyway, you may as well just stick with consumed coin age and leave it at that.

- proof-of-excellence is a system concept we discovered as an alternative to proof-of-stake. but it is not implemented in ppcoin
- proof-of-work mint formula is: difficulty == (9999 / (mint per block)) ** 4
- purpose of proof-of-stake is to replace proof-of-work functions. first it's generation is made hard like proof-of-work, with the hashing scheme, taking the block generation function of proof-of-work. this is core part of the protocol, and it's called kernel for good reasons. target is adjusted similar to proof-of-work so this alleviates your concern about depletion of coin age as proof-of-stake difficulty would be lowered in that situation. then in our v0.2 reorganization is switching to a scoring based on proof-of-stake difficulty which closely resembles Satoshi's formula and providing strong protection to the network. in summary proof-of-stake has completely replaced all functions of proof-of-work except for minting.

Etlase2

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Why must the code be read to understand the coin distribution system and possibly whatever "proof-of-excellence" is?

There is nothing in the paper nor the wiki detailing these things. At least nowhere near satisfactorily. 16x cuts the reward in half, so does 8x cut it by 25%? Is this increase permanent, even if difficulty lowers? Does the starting difficulty make sense in this scenario?

You talk about "consumed coin age" in the paper, but why is proof-of-stake even necessary with this mechanic? I've talked about it in several other threads, and really all you're accomplishing is giving an incentive for people with wealth to make transactions and consume their coin age to create a proof-of-stake block. But with consumed coin age as you call it, it already does this. What additional protection does the stake really offer? It seems possible that at certain points no one will be able to create proof-of-stake blocks (or choose not to) if no one can consume enough coin age, so proof-of-work will have to take over or everyone will have to wait a potentially long time before a new block. If PoW is your backup anyway, you may as well just stick with consumed coin age and leave it at that.

Sunny King

legendary

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NothinG PM'ed me asking about cap. So I will also make a public reply here.

There is no hard cap other than a 2 billion coin max I have put into the code for now. But that should not be interpreted as an approachable cap, as it might never get anywhere close to that. Due the nature of the mint rate design it's not possible to predict a final limit as it depends heavily on market participation, as well as the influences between proof-of-stake minting and fee destruction (there may not even be a mathematical limit if proof-of-stake minting continues to outpace fee destruction). One thing I do know is that the proof-of-work generation would slow down exponentially according to Moore's Law. So generally speaking it is still a very low future-inflation design comparable to Bitcoin.

In 0.2 release I am including a 'moneysupply' stat in the getinfo output so everyone can see how many coins are in the market.

tacotime

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Quote from: galambo on August 22, 2012, 06:33:49 AM

Quote from: Sunny King on August 21, 2012, 11:29:02 PM

Actually I think I did a not too shabby job with the difficulty as you can see we went from 256 to 3000 in less than 3 days and block generation adjusted beautifully.

Otherwise you'd been seeing lots of blocks coming in seconds apart.

No, you did a shabby job. You'll understand why later.

May your coin serve as a warning to the community.

That is, if PPCoin hasn't already failed for some other reason at 3 non-coinbase transactions, as the error message may indicate.

this sounds bad

the testnet is your friend guys

FlipPro

legendary

Activity: 1764

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Let me say this publicly.

PPC is an AWESOME idea...

It's what many here have been advocating, for a very long time.

(name could be much better though),

forum on PPC site should also be put up asap... Let me know if you guys need any help hosting a good forum..

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: Vorksholk on August 23, 2012, 10:33:22 PM

Not sure where at all to find info about this:
1.) What is the current hashrate around?
2.) Is there a block-explorer of some sort?
3.) What is the recommended amount of hashing power to solo?

Thanks

1) I'd estimate (taking generation, shares and number of miners at my pool) it being around 30-50Gh/s. This is a very generalized guess, so please take it lightly.
2) Not at the moment. Wouldn't be hard to get one setup, any PCCoin client can do it.
3) I'd say about 2-3Gh/s will give you a decent amount of coins over X amount of time.

Vorksholk

legendary

Activity: 1713

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Not sure where at all to find info about this:
1.) What is the current hashrate around?
2.) Is there a block-explorer of some sort?
3.) What is the recommended amount of hashing power to solo?

Thanks

TheSeven

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

FPGA Mining LLC

Kinda funny how some people keep complaining that the block reward drops too fast, other complain that it drops too slow.
Seriously, what it the problem with it dropping? It will be almost constant once hashrate stabilizes. I don't think it will go far below 1000 anytime soon.

nave

donator

Activity: 162

Merit: 100

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on August 23, 2012, 12:32:24 PM

If in 4 weeks the block reward is 2 coins, miners will already be long gone and coin dead. Sure you're counting on it being around just a short time, but it could be so short that nothing practical comes of it.

If the miners start disappearing, wouldn't the difficulty drop and the mint rate raise again? I've read the PPcoin paper and couldn't find a specific answer to this.

Quote

We modified the proof-of-work mint rate to be not determined by block height (time) but
instead determined by difficulty. When mining difficulty goes up, proof-of-work mint
rate is lowered. A relatively smooth curve is chosen as opposed to Bitcoin’s step
functions, to avoid artificially shocking the market. More specifically, a continuous curve
is chosen such that each 16x raise of mining difficulty halves the block mint amount.

This seems to imply that the mint rate would go up with lowered difficulty, but it doesn't say so directly. I'm just curious how exactly this coin functions.

crazy_rabbit

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RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME

Quote from: cunicula on August 23, 2012, 11:52:50 AM

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on August 23, 2012, 08:31:08 AM

Coblee has a point. The block reward decreasing so fast would anyone who jumps on to mine now the effective premine before others get interested. Already there is talk of an exchange, but the positive and interesting aspects of PPC coin aside, it does feel pump-and-dumpy.

Why not have the block reward decrease at a slower rate? The fast rate of decay feel like an accelerated and artificial creation of scarcity. Bitcoin gets the block having this december after 4 years, but PPC coin will do the same in a vastly shorter amount of time.

The focus should be development of a reliable and secure exchange of value that relies on minimal electricity input. Concerns over the fairness of initial distribution are a silly distraction. I feel the rate of decay in initial distribution is too slow by two or more orders of magnitude. The currency will likely disappear before it ever demonstrates anything resembling energy-efficiency.

On the contrary: perhaps you are right from the technical perspective, but I think a lot of people would agree that LTC is still around because it felt fair and felt fair for a long time (and still feels fair).

SolidCoin (and some others) despite putting up a hell of a fight, are more or less no longer.

If in 4 weeks the block reward is 2 coins, miners will already be long gone and coin dead. Sure you're counting on it being around just a short time, but it could be so short that nothing practical comes of it.

cunicula

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Quote from: crazy_rabbit on August 23, 2012, 08:31:08 AM

Coblee has a point. The block reward decreasing so fast would anyone who jumps on to mine now the effective premine before others get interested. Already there is talk of an exchange, but the positive and interesting aspects of PPC coin aside, it does feel pump-and-dumpy.

Why not have the block reward decrease at a slower rate? The fast rate of decay feel like an accelerated and artificial creation of scarcity. Bitcoin gets the block having this december after 4 years, but PPC coin will do the same in a vastly shorter amount of time.

The focus should be development of a reliable and secure exchange of value that relies on minimal electricity input. Concerns over the fairness of initial distribution are a silly distraction. I feel the rate of decay in initial distribution is too slow by two or more orders of magnitude. The currency will likely disappear before it ever demonstrates anything resembling energy-efficiency.

crazy_rabbit

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Activity: 1204

Merit: 1002

RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME

Quote from: dust on August 22, 2012, 11:10:36 PM

Quote from: maxcarjuzaa on August 22, 2012, 08:39:59 PM

Quote from: coblee on August 20, 2012, 06:27:57 PM

I'm interested to find out more about this coin. Looking at the code, it seems like Sunny has indeed been working on this since November of last year. So it's unfortunate that he decided to do kind of a rush launch of the coin. The information about how a coin works should really be announced and analyzed by the community before the blockchain is started. Now miners have to decide whether they want to jump in without knowing what they are really supporting or wait until more information is released. Couple this with the fact that the block generation starts at 9999 and decreases as difficulty increases, this coin might turn out to have a larger effective premine than SolidCoin.

+1

Your intent is valid, but the block reward actually started at 2500.

Coblee has a point. The block reward decreasing so fast would anyone who jumps on to mine now the effective premine before others get interested. Already there is talk of an exchange, but the positive and interesting aspects of PPC coin aside, it does feel pump-and-dumpy.

Why not have the block reward decrease at a slower rate? The fast rate of decay feel like an accelerated and artificial creation of scarcity. Bitcoin gets the block having this december after 4 years, but PPC coin will do the same in a vastly shorter amount of time.

markm

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