[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency - page 135.

coblee

donator

Activity: 1654

Merit: 1354

Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.

Quote from: NothinG on August 23, 2012, 01:45:18 AM

Quote from: mtbitcoin on August 23, 2012, 01:43:44 AM

Quote from: NothinG on August 23, 2012, 01:20:05 AM

I'm kind of scared/nervous/happy...
I found 1450.56 PPC in my Balance, but there is no transaction to back it up.

How can I figure out where it came from? ( http://46.166.138.142/dev2.php < Raw list of all my transactions ).

If you are using 'listtransactions' they appear to get moved off as soon as they mature into a balance.

Do you know where they get listed into?
I have no idea why I can't figure this out.

listtransactions only returns the last 10 by default.
Try:

listtransactions '' 100

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: mtbitcoin on August 23, 2012, 01:43:44 AM

Quote from: NothinG on August 23, 2012, 01:20:05 AM

I'm kind of scared/nervous/happy...
I found 1450.56 PPC in my Balance, but there is no transaction to back it up.

How can I figure out where it came from? ( http://46.166.138.142/dev2.php < Raw list of all my transactions ).

If you are using 'listtransactions' they appear to get moved off as soon as they mature into a balance.

Do you know where they get listed into?
I have no idea why I can't figure this out.

mtbitcoin

legendary

Activity: 876

Merit: 1000

Etherscan.io

Quote from: NothinG on August 23, 2012, 01:20:05 AM

I'm kind of scared/nervous/happy...
I found 1450.56 PPC in my Balance, but there is no transaction to back it up.

How can I figure out where it came from? ( http://46.166.138.142/dev2.php < Raw list of all my transactions ).

If you are using 'listtransactions' they appear to get moved off as soon as they mature into a balance.

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

I'm kind of scared/nervous/happy...
I found 1450.56 PPC in my Balance, but there is no transaction to back it up.

How can I figure out where it came from? ( http://46.166.138.142/dev2.php < Raw list of all my transactions ).

dust

hero member

Activity: 840

Merit: 1000

Quote from: maxcarjuzaa on August 22, 2012, 08:39:59 PM

Quote from: coblee on August 20, 2012, 06:27:57 PM

I'm interested to find out more about this coin. Looking at the code, it seems like Sunny has indeed been working on this since November of last year. So it's unfortunate that he decided to do kind of a rush launch of the coin. The information about how a coin works should really be announced and analyzed by the community before the blockchain is started. Now miners have to decide whether they want to jump in without knowing what they are really supporting or wait until more information is released. Couple this with the fact that the block generation starts at 9999 and decreases as difficulty increases, this coin might turn out to have a larger effective premine than SolidCoin.

+1

Your intent is valid, but the block reward actually started at 2500.

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: SysRun on August 22, 2012, 09:47:36 PM

What does the PP stand for now? Is this coin "#1"?

Maybe it stands for PayPal Coin?
Payper Coin?
Pay Per Coin?
Pay Pirate Coin? //It's the Ponzi Coins O.O

I don't hate the coin...obviously for how much time I've spent working on a pool for it.

SysRun

hero member

Activity: 616

Merit: 500

Portland Bitcoin Group Organizer

What does the PP stand for now? Is this coin "#1"?

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: doublec on August 22, 2012, 09:42:44 PM

Quote from: NothinG on August 22, 2012, 08:43:05 PM

So, how many confirmations does it take for it to "mature"?
...
I still show a 0 balance. Are the "newmint" coins movable? (I don't think I've even tested that yet...)

520 to mature IIRC. I think 'newmint' can be ignored. It only tells you how many coins are immature.

That makes me feel bad for everyone spending ALL THIS TIME mining and I can't even fully test the pool out.

doublec

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1005

Quote from: NothinG on August 22, 2012, 08:43:05 PM

So, how many confirmations does it take for it to "mature"?
...
I still show a 0 balance. Are the "newmint" coins movable? (I don't think I've even tested that yet...)

520 to mature IIRC. I think 'newmint' can be ignored. It only tells you how many coins are immature.

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Added List of blocks found @ my pool.

http://46.166.138.142/dev.php

This will be moved around...just waiting for the blocks to become "Mature".

[Edit]-

To clarify how I'm going to distribute shares: I will take the block-found date, and compare it to the date the shares where received and distribute based on that.
I will not take out a "pool fee" whilst I'm developing the pool (currently) as that doesn't seem fair to ANYONE whilst this pool has been a major learning experience.
After the pool is stable, I may add a small fee (possibly 0.1%).

maxcarjuzaa

full member

Activity: 188

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Sunny King on August 21, 2012, 10:28:07 AM

Double spending is indeed a weakness in the design and that's one of the reasons why checkpoint is needed. I think we have been clear about that in our paper. We will look for other reasonable solutions within our power although that should not be construed as some sort of guarantee.

Wait. That is the whole purpose of the "proof". It is to prevent a double spend. It would be like saying this vault is a great design except for people being able to steal money trivially is one of the weaknesses.

If you need to rely on centralized checkpointing then there is no point to mining. You could just make a centralized server and issue coins, handle redemptions, and validate tx by destroying old coins and issuing new ones as part of every tx at a tiny fraction of the cost of mining.

Decentralized transaction processing is very expensive (the entire daily tx volume of Bitcoin could be handled by a single low end VPS) but it is the cost of decentralization. Having that cost combined with reliance on a central authority to protect the value of coins is the worst of both worlds.

None of this should be considered an attack on proof of stake, the problem is PPCoin isn't proof of stake. It is centralized auditing with pretend mining thrown on top to make it look decentralized.

+1

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: doublec on August 22, 2012, 06:30:49 PM

Quote from: NothinG on August 22, 2012, 11:41:07 AM

How do I determine the block number from the listtransactions?

If ppcoin has 'getblock' then you can "getblock" on the hash of the block and that gives the block height.

Quote from: NothinG on August 22, 2012, 11:41:07 AM

Also, how do I determine the PPC per block if it changes so dynamically?

A way to do it is to determine the reward for the block associated with the work you've given a user and compute the PPS specific to the value of that block for the shares they return. That's if you're paying PPS s shares are submitted. If you're paying after a block is found you can use "getblock" to find the value and compute the PPS from that.

Thank you.

I ran into another problem, I was hoping would be fixed by the time I got home.

Code:

root@mein:~# ./ppcoind listtransactions
[
    {
        "account" : "",
        "category" : "immature",
        "amount" : 1332.23000000,
        "confirmations" : 152,
        "blockhash" : "00000000000835d38da340a876046e3cad00f034649f477e0f334b98a8903785",
        "blockindex" : 0,
        "txid" : "2d0e1f81c19d8050dbb5d6db54319e14de6c510379f8e32fce9caad3daac7a30",
        "time" : 1345625404
    },

So, how many confirmations does it take for it to "mature"?

Code:

root@mein:~# ./ppcoind getinfo
{
    "version" : "v0.1.0ppc-beta",
    "protocolversion" : 60001,
    "walletversion" : 60000,
    "balance" : 0.00000000,
    "newmint" : 47428.28000000,
    "stake" : 0.00000000,
    "blocks" : 1795,
    "connections" : 25,
    "proxy" : "",
    "ip" : "46.166.138.142",
    "difficulty" : 3510.57591109,
    "testnet" : false,
    "keypoololdest" : 1345415511,
    "keypoolsize" : 101,
    "paytxfee" : 0.01000000,
    "errors" : ""
}

I still show a 0 balance. Are the "newmint" coins movable? (I don't think I've even tested that yet...)

maxcarjuzaa

full member

Activity: 188

Merit: 100

Quote from: coblee on August 20, 2012, 06:27:57 PM

I'm interested to find out more about this coin. Looking at the code, it seems like Sunny has indeed been working on this since November of last year. So it's unfortunate that he decided to do kind of a rush launch of the coin. The information about how a coin works should really be announced and analyzed by the community before the blockchain is started. Now miners have to decide whether they want to jump in without knowing what they are really supporting or wait until more information is released. Couple this with the fact that the block generation starts at 9999 and decreases as difficulty increases, this coin might turn out to have a larger effective premine than SolidCoin.

+1

doublec

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1005

Quote from: NothinG on August 22, 2012, 11:41:07 AM

How do I determine the block number from the listtransactions?

If ppcoin has 'getblock' then you can "getblock" on the hash of the block and that gives the block height.

Quote from: NothinG on August 22, 2012, 11:41:07 AM

Also, how do I determine the PPC per block if it changes so dynamically?

A way to do it is to determine the reward for the block associated with the work you've given a user and compute the PPS specific to the value of that block for the shares they return. That's if you're paying PPS s shares are submitted. If you're paying after a block is found you can use "getblock" to find the value and compute the PPS from that.

pooler

hero member

Activity: 849

Merit: 507

Quote from: cunicula on August 22, 2012, 10:19:26 AM

Quote from: killerstorm on August 22, 2012, 09:51:32 AM

Coblee now has a proposal to integrate a form of PoS into Litecoin. But he first asks experts on forum whether they see vulnerabilities.

If he'll find a solution which works, I doubt he'll have any problems integrating it into Litecoin. So I disagree that "Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all."

Yes, many things fail, but that's probably because they shouldn't exist.

If PPCoin had never been released, would Coblee still be motivated to bring forward a proposal related to PoS?

In #litecoin-dev, iddo and coblee have been having lengthy discussions on proof-of-stake for quite some time now. I don't keep logs, but I'm 100% sure these discussions predate the initial PPCoin announcement.

NothinG

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

http://46.166.138.142/stats.php

I modified the site to show pending confirmations of blocks.

How do I determine the block number from the listtransactions?
Also, how do I determine the PPC per block if it changes so dynamically?

-Heading to work, hopefully I can get some answers so I can finish the pool up. Also, when I get back...hopefully we can see at least some confirmed blocks...meaning I can finally start handing out coins.

Here is the current found blocks and their solutions on the pool.

Code:

/**
 * Export to PHP Array plugin for PHPMyAdmin
 * @version 0.2b
 */

// `shares`
$shares = array(
  array('id' => '597','time' => '2012-08-22 03:34:33','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010ff735d21115d1593885a78e862f707fd867c02909fe50c40015d6ba0000000041d23220933ea6c31ff86bae8fbe3095152fee258f8402111197e7f0f28168e750341b331b165dec169556c7000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000'),
  array('id' => '2786','time' => '2012-08-22 04:12:31','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010f038fbad2fc41bbaad7333115e6cd4123e56bc68cf33ff0000d732e00000000914c4a6cf902925d05bddb0920fe95ed4affade3bdc2924dbca2f56ab172f74d503424271b1634d557fbc27d000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '5775','time' => '2012-08-22 04:53:50','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001b7dd851ea7f4338672a9e91dd2f6b292801c01c16aff913c0007aa5200000000b4698e81e6400a79ad27bc8671ea0b5f757a1267490b4d2dd923628b7ac8da0250342da91b160c2a5085cf44000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '8918','time' => '2012-08-22 05:37:17','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010656a3e8773cd882142942fb0850580e150a37866c6193890011fda300000000ba49b9783222ae0168e8ba1e9575cc4840bdcce1b9074b9fd494b0263ce62a82503438001b160a482b5535b7000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '13867','time' => '2012-08-22 06:46:44','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001bb9e1cf3285c09063fd38b9884457e859c8de6eac75ca5b2000b7ced00000000280e7a5f06d6deaeacf8d40a8802e64cfd6fef85321238a4146e95b57d4c4d6f5034484f1b15d77c2000b1a5000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '15131','time' => '2012-08-22 07:06:53','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000119e6927b16bb48794b87d5e8a12894ee4a618f0ed2391bb9000c069600000000915568f9005f7b3272aac088c0b31d765c7f8cc088cd4c67be16cca9b3d2c4a850344cd41b15d82f4793e3a6000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '19354','time' => '2012-08-22 08:14:54','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000114b51ee146f6075f8069dbd8560e5d7fc484e8c2bd4159250008a5cb00000000662028d615f0c9085a286f3e7c89779072e4287d2e496270552315637e3d2ec650345cfb1b15a8cac0be22b9000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '20865','time' => '2012-08-22 08:38:18','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000013d6ca03f350bdedac15cb602361a0fa25460da8876b998330005060b00000000a062c52b36f6774991a34bfd5c35b23d6a40b4a2079b8318f24eb6ec26c36c075034623f1b159643516c8629000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '21126','time' => '2012-08-22 08:42:27','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000163afad8f6f528491a8a3876e8383bcc295c496cbf6f2839d00118b0c0000000023ed0c68b82c3e12d312ac01e41ec8a55cb92b62b026bf6fdbf8414d9c963a2b5034633e1b1599ad7770397f000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '21699','time' => '2012-08-22 08:50:42','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000017b8e63d5ff5028b488bf8b440718cd2fe88e10bdd694f91300035b6a0000000094130b31674cb572e9b0313d67608ff0c7ce5733b17b6016766ba83ca34e21c35034652a1b158ce8a85543d9000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '27957','time' => '2012-08-22 10:17:56','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001372bb1c6719cd18bb5e728d12599f0bd59c9ac95202a3dbd00070eb400000000bd0be8d8892a2f58e9db250d21168d6e70b6f231662c17c49adc765a7d4d1eb4503479a21b154082a3189046000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '28457','time' => '2012-08-22 10:25:11','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000010657889db83ffbe147da79c33837e8249284ea5b79b40d5a0013e442000000001bcf9351e3c765cbdd15a37aee07715ed24a3a7cd997b2bc1191b077afe82bb350347b641b152d4fb86cc61f000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '30022','time' => '2012-08-22 10:47:36','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '000000012e85bf31063ff59bb1dfb051f42c20bad87ac4d1353cef7c0007b7f500000000c2c47050e9938f3a39642c489928c5e6c075bf6cee59738b638f7975cebf8f025034808d1b151585876d2cc8000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '36261','time' => '2012-08-22 12:49:02','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001f200bd0990dc2c8fd2b5e48bafde26b0080af28bf866ae920004190400000000daac7a30ce9caad379f8e32fde6c510354319e14dbb5d6dbc19d80502d0e1f8150349d061b14a6e45588cbdc000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '41286','time' => '2012-08-22 14:27:11','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001d7f543b1eac0bb78b9b14b80c402916188232db6aee45aab00058c6400000000724e0ceaaea979916e66c33f5017029b88b248a1343274202635b4b8467f73175034b41a1b142bb17b78f9de000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '44190','time' => '2012-08-22 15:21:14','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000158e45ba3463f72f9fd40ba360516151351e9d72dcf4584890005a9d400000000e73ae85dc017d7f35474ad410fe22cf780ba34b27f4720edadc336c5da5e7a9f5034c0b71b13f09d63580d2c000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '51954','time' => '2012-08-22 17:55:52','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000153e1d0278be74e323880f648a64f037fc125b0d323bce7e5000ac98e000000008553ca8db01c22bfb0f9a62fa68458c89b85685cd6dfe3d8c0917b0a19da34015034e5251b13bdc82f5c1596000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '54813','time' => '2012-08-22 18:58:53','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000196fabab7fd4763269de792be8fedafe062bdd80b896b34410004672100000000e914a234157840ab8a3aa900846ae5b41c5daa7322bf21a5e6558cf51e9881425034f3b81b139f29f65b4715000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '58282','time' => '2012-08-22 20:14:49','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '0000000148e78d64f222fda8d110e2c520eff8d8985ac67143adcd3d0003d9f2000000001bd1c27cdfa8b0e068749afdedb23bcf05807a1a887f52230e12a45ea719f814503505b51b138b7ad2639823000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '58461','time' => '2012-08-22 20:18:22','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001cf024d7012af313c901b6f72b4182e53ef46c7962c9f40380006b766000000008926160f4169ca4855098d5f3c44ca095718620112b03be867f864f5c43b98e3503506571b1389df294c03e2000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000'),
  array('id' => '59731','time' => '2012-08-22 20:46:15','our_result' => 'Y','upstream_result' => 'Y','reason' => NULL,'solution' => '00000001dc5ae1275c137fc6e6e48d725e26270e6405fb5cdc262e4b000680bd0000000089a7be46076596629833241c2886bec427325bcc87ea8066214d76a9332c90c450350ce21b137277035256c2000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000')
);

cunicula

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1003

Quote from: Sunny King on August 22, 2012, 09:21:22 AM

If you learn enough details from the paper I believe you should be able to understand that the proof-of-work mint rate curve is pretty irrelevant in evaluating whether the design solves energy efficiency. Proof-of-work is not used in any meaningful manner in the protection of the network, it mainly provides minting.

I would like to see your flying machine operate without any proof-of-work or checkpoint contraptions in the vicinity. Demonstrating this is the easiest way of showing the world that you have constructed a proof-of-stake flying machine.

You are saying that proof-of-work and checkpoints play no role in the actual flying process. That may be the case. However, for outsiders to be able to verify this, the protocol and paper have to be very transparent. The paper would have to provide a much more detailed explanation of the protocol than it does currently. Even if you provide a perfectly detailed explanation, many people will remain unconvinced. You are asking people to do work to verify your claims, but people are lazy.

cunicula

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1003

Quote from: killerstorm on August 22, 2012, 09:51:32 AM

Coblee now has a proposal to integrate a form of PoS into Litecoin. But he first asks experts on forum whether they see vulnerabilities.

If he'll find a solution which works, I doubt he'll have any problems integrating it into Litecoin. So I disagree that "Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all."

Yes, many things fail, but that's probably because they shouldn't exist.

If PPCoin had never been released, would Coblee still be motivated to bring forward a proposal related to PoS?

I think the answer is probably no.

killerstorm

legendary

Activity: 1022

Merit: 1033

Quote from: cunicula on August 22, 2012, 04:41:07 AM

Whatever, he is doing something experimental. Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all. Therefore, props for experimenting the improper way. Just hope that the 'improper' experiment can be redesigned to produce useful information in finite time.

Coblee now has a proposal to integrate a form of PoS into Litecoin. But he first asks experts on forum whether they see vulnerabilities.

If he'll find a solution which works, I doubt he'll have any problems integrating it into Litecoin. So I disagree that "Proper typically equates to not doing anything at all."

Yes, many things fail, but that's probably because they shouldn't exist.

Sunny King

legendary

Activity: 1205

Merit: 1010

Quote from: cunicula on August 22, 2012, 01:19:24 AM

The design principles must be fully validated to a high degree of confidence in the near-term. People won't wait years for a clear validation of the design. The pump & dump, ponzi issues are irrelevant and should be of far lower priority.

I suggest that you radically modify the rules, aiming to achieve energy efficient operation within a few months of launch. Even if this fails due to lack of interest, it will be quite valuable to know whether the underlying protocol works as advertised.

If you learn enough details from the paper I believe you should be able to understand that the proof-of-work mint rate curve is pretty irrelevant in evaluating whether the design solves energy efficiency. Proof-of-work is not used in any meaningful manner in the protection of the network, it mainly provides minting.

Topic: [ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency - page 135. (Read 684996 times)