ANN threads shouldn't be self-moderated - page 2.

hd49728

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 05, 2019, 05:13:28 PM

Are we going to see some serious conversation regarding forum rules changes??
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/writing-a-welcome-message-5036308

I don't think so, because the forum has changed positively over months, after the appearance of merit system. I don't call that spam has entirely eliminated, but it has been reduced dramatically. I do believe that if we ignore all spamming Proof of Authentication posts from bounty threads, the level of spam significantly decreased.

To make sure the industry of signature advertisements won't be destroyed, please give your hands to find bad/ spam posts and do reports.
Cleaning up the house in Bitcoin/ Altcoin/ Gambling Discussion boards
Since 2018, what did you contribute to prevent signature ads removed globally?
I emphasized the importance of community users' contributions, and I do hope that users will support it.

TheUltraElite

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 05, 2019, 05:13:28 PM

Are we going to see some serious conversation regarding forum rules changes??

You may but you should know that your opinion is only an opinion and not going to bring an immediate change in the system. Having a conversation is good but having a hope is false optimism. I have seen many many useful suggestions posted here but the decision of admins is what matters. You will have to wait for them to decide on this. Any attempt to force them a hurried decision only ends up in you thread getting ignored. Wink

Quote

Can we here some DT members opinion about this?

DT members and forum administration are not the same. This decision depends on the forum administration and you will just have to wait for them to decide what is good for the forum the freedom of speech for everyone.

Saisher

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on September 04, 2019, 01:02:56 PM

Every day, some new ANN threads are created in the forum. Many of these ANN threads are self-moderated. In my opinion, posting self-moderated topics shouldn't be allowed on "Announcements (Altcoins)".
In most cases, they make the topics self-moderated to be able to delete any post complaining them. Instead of deleting the posts, they should report the posts and posts are deleted only by moderators.
I know there are many spams in these topics. They can be only allowed to delete the posts that are made by newbies.

I agree on you they are quick to delete negative posters in their thread, because investors may find out that they are running a dubious project, they even hire bumpers and shillers, I never trust announcement thread created by newbies that are moderated, this could mean they are hiding something.

dkbit98

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Are we going to see some serious conversation regarding forum rules changes??
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/writing-a-welcome-message-5036308

I would really want to see Newbies have restriction to create self-moderated Topics.

Can we here some DT members opinion about this?

Theb

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Quote from: LoyceV on September 05, 2019, 07:47:05 AM

Quote from: Theb on September 05, 2019, 07:23:44 AM

From what I know LoyceV also have reported that they are making their ANN threads self-moderated because they also delete the post bumps being createdby them or bump services.

I haven't seen that "in the wild". It would be very obvious since theymos added a deleted-post-counter on top.

If I would create an ANN-thread, I would want it to be self-moderated to delete spam. One solution would be to only allow users with more than (say) 300 good reports to create self-moderated threads, but that goes against the forum's mission to be as free as possible.

My bad, I was actually referring to this topic you have posted a while back and maybe the point that I have missed is that the post being deleted are coming from the posters itself and not the OP deleting it manually because their ANN threads are self-moderated. To be honest I myself don't see any workaround when it comes to the option of having self-moderated topics without affecting all parties, maybe if we add in a strike system for the user abusing their self-moderated topics then we can actually remove the user's right to use it entirely.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: hd49728 on September 05, 2019, 08:52:58 AM

Really? I have not seen theymos wrote about that or did I miss it? If theymos announced about that, and you knew where he posted it, please share me link to that post.

Here is the post made by Theymos in 2014

Quote from: theymos on January 27, 2014, 02:11:50 AM

Most giveaway threads are no longer allowed in the Alternate cryptocurrencies sections. From now on, posting or replying to such threads could result in being banned. Existing threads will be locked.

Specifically, you are not allowed to give people any incentive to post insubstantial posts in your threads. You can't offer to pay people who post their addresses, usernames, etc. You can do giveaways off-site and link to the giveaway page in a thread, but you can't give people any bonus for replying to your thread.

Similar threads are already restricted to Games and Rounds in the non-altcoin sections, but the giveaway-related post volume is so high in the altcoin sections that I've decided to just ban them entirely here.

What I has made it bold was ignored until August 2017 when mprep made the post below on August 19, 2017
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/incentivising-posting-within-one-or-more-threads-is-not-allowed-2103690

As I remember on that day many bounty threads all were deleted simultaneously. Not only the threads that had been considered bonus for replying to their thread. Theymos deleted all bounty threads that had asked participants to make posts on their ANN.
Before that time bounty managers used to force participants to make a certain percentage of their post on their ANN thread. For example bounty hunters had to make 10 posts which 2 of them must be on their ANN thread.

If I am not wrong discussions about that policy started from the post below.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=434310.580

hd49728

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on September 05, 2019, 08:16:14 AM

Theymos finally deleted all the bounty threads that were forcing participants to reply to their threads. This caused number of useless posts on ANN threads to decrease.

Really? I have not seen theymos wrote about that or did I miss it? If theymos announced about that, and you knew where he posted it, please share me link to that post.
Bounty threads only relate to bump, and spam, to keep their bounty thread stays on top. In that trash subboard, without bumping threads will be hurried by other threads.
ANN threads with self-moderation mostly abused to censor posts that don't satisfy threads' owners. E.g. telling about proofs of scam.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: hd49728 on September 05, 2019, 07:55:40 AM

I do agree with using 300 good reports as pre-requisite to be able to create self-moderated thread.
I don't know at start, self-moderated threads born in the forum for which kind of original purposes, but in my opinion, there are only main purpose:
- To avoid spam, delete trashposts from spammers to keep high quality threads as clean as possible.
Unfortunately, over time, bad guys, includes scammers abuse self-moderated threads for their shady targets.
That suggestion makes sense because scammers usually don't spend time to report bad posts, especially 300, just to create self-moderated threads. They mostly create new account, buy Copper membership or buy hacked accounts (high ranks). 300 good reports looks good, but I don't think it will solve issues, because there are demands, there are market, and we might see a new market with 300+ good-report accounts

You are completely right about the purposes of creating self-moderated topics. But in ANN threads, some threads are made self-moderated for other reasons. Spamming the thread usually doesn't matter to them. They just want their thread to be kept on top of other threads.
I remember in most of the bounties, participants used to be forced to make certain number of posts on ANN threads. Spamming doesn't matter to them. Theymos finally deleted all the bounty threads that were forcing participants to reply to their threads. This caused number of useless posts on ANN threads to decrease.

hilariousetc

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I would disagree. I think they should be allowed to moderate their own threads as they see fit, even if that can lead to abuse, but if that happens people are within their rights to complain about it or start their own thread to discuss the abuse. Personally, I would much rather have coins moderate their own threads rather than rely on mods to do that for them. Self-moderating does come in handy when you're being attacked by trolls or spammers and sometimes people may not be breaking the forum rules by doing so so it's better not to rely on staff to clean up their problems (and they wouldn't get involved if it doesn't break the rules).

DaveF

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Quote from: hd49728 on September 05, 2019, 07:55:40 AM

I do agree with using 300 good reports as pre-requisite to be able to create self-moderated thread.
I don't know at start, self-moderated threads born in the forum for which kind of original purposes, but in my opinion, there are only main purpose:
- To avoid spam, delete trashposts from spammers to keep high quality threads as clean as possible.
Unfortunately, over time, bad guys, includes scammers abuse self-moderated threads for their shady targets.
That suggestion makes sense because scammers usually don't spend time to report bad posts, especially 300, just to create self-moderated threads. They mostly create new account, buy Copper membership or buy hacked accounts (high ranks). 300 good reports looks good, but I don't think it will solve issues, because there are demands, there are market, and we might see a new market with 300+ good-report accounts

Reported posts is not a good test, many people don't report threads at all. So that is not a good way IMO.
The other issue I see is a known good poster (lets call him DaveF) wants to launch his own coin. Let's call it DaveCoin.
I want to have 2 separate accounts. This one and the DaveCoinAdmin for launching and discussing that coin. It's a publicly known alt but is 100% new.
So, now I can't mod my own thread?

-Dave

hd49728

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I do agree with using 300 good reports as pre-requisite to be able to create self-moderated thread.
I don't know at start, self-moderated threads born in the forum for which kind of original purposes, but in my opinion, there are only main purpose:
- To avoid spam, delete trashposts from spammers to keep high quality threads as clean as possible.
Unfortunately, over time, bad guys, includes scammers abuse self-moderated threads for their shady targets.
That suggestion makes sense because scammers usually don't spend time to report bad posts, especially 300, just to create self-moderated threads. They mostly create new account, buy Copper membership or buy hacked accounts (high ranks). 300 good reports looks good, but I don't think it will solve issues, because there are demands, there are market, and we might see a new market with 300+ good-report accounts

LoyceV

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Quote from: Theb on September 05, 2019, 07:23:44 AM

From what I know LoyceV also have reported that they are making their ANN threads self-moderated because they also delete the post bumps being createdby them or bump services.

I haven't seen that "in the wild". It would be very obvious since theymos added a deleted-post-counter on top.

If I would create an ANN-thread, I would want it to be self-moderated to delete spam. One solution would be to only allow users with more than (say) 300 good reports to create self-moderated threads, but that goes against the forum's mission to be as free as possible.

hd49728

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Quote from: Distinctin on September 05, 2019, 07:33:56 AM

You just have to trust the OP in that matter, somehow, self moderated thread will also help the thread clean but on the negative side, it could be viewed as non transparent thread. IMO, I like ANN threads that are not self moderated but the penalty of spamming should be harsh like banning instantly if it's really intentional so these people will not abuse the thread.

It is hard to trust any new teams, new born projects in crypto. Time, only time can verify their trustworthy and capacity to build up good projects and good ecosystem. I don't see problems if my posts in ANN threads deleted by owners. It will be somewhat signals of likely not good projects. So, I think it is good because owners give me free signals to stay away from their projects and I would like to say thanks to them.

Distinctin

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You just have to trust the OP in that matter, somehow, self moderated thread will also help the thread clean but on the negative side, it could be viewed as non transparent thread. IMO, I like ANN threads that are not self moderated but the penalty of spamming should be harsh like banning instantly if it's really intentional so these people will not abuse the thread.

NeuroticFish

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On the other hand, I've seen unmoderated threads that get full of garbage from trolls.
The truth is in the middle, somewhere. Maybe OP should have to ask permission from moderators to make his thread self-moderated and the permission can also be lost under some conditions. But I don't know if the forum software allows this and it would mean extra work for the mods.

Theb

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on September 04, 2019, 01:31:28 PM

Quote from: rosezionjohn on September 04, 2019, 01:22:04 PM

abusing self-moderation to censor and/or cover their scammy/shady projects

This snippet above is the only problem I can see with self-moderated ANN threads, and I have no doubt whatsoever that some projects will do this. On the other hand, if you've ever seen one of these ANN threads you'll realize that about 95% of the posts there should be deleted.

The only question I have is whether the shitposts are being paid for by the project in order to bump the thread. If that's the case, then there's no reason to have a self-moderated thread, because then you know damn well that the OP isn't going to delete anything except for posts he doesn't like. I have a sneaking suspicion that most ANN thread starters love the bumping garbage posts.

From what I know LoyceV also have reported that they are making their ANN threads self-moderated because they also delete the post bumps being createdby them or bump services. I know a lot of newbies got nuked back then but I don't know if this kind of tactics still continues now. So really giving them a self-moderated topic as an option for their threads is a lot of advantage for them. The only problem here is removing the self-moderated threads would also affect projects who are always under the attack from members trying to damage their reputation.

tranthidung

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 04, 2019, 01:29:41 PM

I proposed earlier that Brand New and Newbie account should not be even allowed to create new Topics (they can still create posts),
BUT if that is to drastic for many people, then Newbies should NOT be allowed to create Self-moderated Topics

It is not fair and not what theymos aims at. There is no newbie jail, and newbies have rights to create their topics, includes self-moderated ones.
I mentioned about it in my above posts:
- Sell-moderated topics have: total posts deleted, and how many users have posts deleted.
- Scam accusation is a good tool.
- Trust & different kind of flags.
If there is something should be consider, I think of:
- An option (as same as PM option) that users can choose to see threads created by Newbies or not. Ignore newbie thread option. If a user choose that option, s/he does not see threads created by newbies, but if those newbies rank up, their threads will be automatically visible.

TheUltraElite

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It would be great if ANN threads would not be self moderated if the cause you are referring to is scams. However we have two methods to combat this currently:
1. We are shown the number of deleted posts on that self modded thread as well as the total merits that those deleted posts recevied. Now it is not possible to call out a scammer and get merits on your post before they are deleted by the OP.
2. Create a "Scam Accusation" thread to explain why you think the person is scamming others and possibly add a newbie flag. Someone who got scammed might come up with enough evidence to construct a Type 3 Flag.

CryptopreneurBrainboss

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Self moderated thread aren't that bad especially when your competitors try to create fud by spreading wrong information on your ANN. When competitors uses alts or paid users to attack other projects, here's when a self moderated thread comes in handy. As for scam projects taking advantage of the feature, we have the trust and flag system to warn forum members about the shady activities of any project. You don't have to keep posting on their thread.

A self moderated ANN thread also offers the OP an opportunity to keep the discussion on the thread professional, avoiding offtopic discussion and their likes. Personally I hate reading through an ANN then encountering offtopic unnecessary discussion.

tranthidung

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Farewell o_e_l_e_o

I don't have bad feelings about self-moderated ANN threads.
Sure it is not a good signal of one project, but I don't think ANN threads can harm anyone.
If you think a project is a scam one, let's make a scam accusation with proof. I don't see mandatory reasons to post in their ANN threads, just to show proof of their scams.
For self-moderated ANN threads, above topic title, you can see the line:

Quote

"This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (X posts by Y users deleted.)"

Paying attention on X, and Y figures, then you can have an overview on how serious they censor posts in their threads.

In some boards, like Goods, Currency exchange, I agree that self-moderated threads should not be allowed.

Topic: ANN threads shouldn't be self-moderated - page 2. (Read 787 times)