Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 196. (Read 1151369 times)

I don't consider the digging an imperfection. It is at the very core of what the coin is about. It's all over the branding. It is rediscovered by new community members every time the price goes up. It is the main thing that makes this coin different from many other pure PoS coins.

Furthermore I don't see blacklisting the undug clams as particularly different from any other blacklisting. They are literally just outputs on the blockchain that happen to be in blocks 0-10000.


Funny thing is, some of us think that much, much greater "uncertainty" will haunt the coin forever if it is changed, because it will be clear that such changes are acceptable to the community and no one can ever know what other changes will be popular in the future. Unless you buy in as a massive whale who can vote to protect your own interests, you will need to just stay away.

So yes, if you want something that is effectively "WhaleCoin", then do this. I don't think that can work, but I may be wrong. It certainly can work if the idea is to never grow beyond JD. The CLAM = WhaleCoin = JD casino chips model probably works as long as JD's whales are trusted to redeem the chips at some reasonable value.

Well you could take that analogy to mean that. But essentially you are saying that you are not interested in CLAM changing in any way, so if anyone wants to change anything about the coin they need to leave? I get that you have an opinion. But a lot of us really like CLAM and want it to get better. Why start from scratch when you have something amazing already with just some imperfections?


I get this argument, and I'm sure there are many on the side of "stopping digging" that are supporting it purely out of self-interest. However, there are others of us who see it as a way to strengthen CLAM and remove the uncertainty that will haunt this coin forever until changed. If I was voting for stopping digging just for my own wallet I would say lets do it tomorrow. Or how about we invalidate all coins dug after I got mine. But I'm saying nothing like that at all. I'm saying lets have set a date at least 6 months or 1 year in the future and put a block number for a cutoff to stop digging. This will cause a renewed interest in the coin and renewed evangelism as everyone tells their friends to triple check those addresses. Then after that date, no more worries of clam tanking by some previously unknown force. CLAM owners will be able to make their own fate and not have it thrown to the wind.

I don't think it's a matter of get out if you don't like it......... it's a matter of you have the choice to create something better if this is so bad. I for 1 am happy with Clam the way things are. This conversation about

"Things Much Change" has only started since JD started accepting Clams. I see it as a bunch of gamblers trying to protect there value nothing else. I have nothing bad to say about Dooglus he has added greatly to Clam

in many ways.   

Jon 

There is not easy mobility between countries, nor can you create new countries easily, so the analogy is false. You can change your ownership of a coin with the click of a mouse, or fork a repo with a different click.

That's the same kind of attitude as "If you don't like this country, you can get out!"

Why does someone need to leave if they want to make things better?

I cannot believe I have just found out about this. I really need to check my old addresses.

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

People who held small to moderate amounts of BTC, LTC and DOGE in 2014 are not really "the elite". That's millions of people including many who became aware of cryptos (esp. DOGE) via mainstream social media. Pre-2013, sure, that's an actual elite. But 2014, no.

Just got ~1200 PMs from the owners of the undug CLAMs:

"Hardly anyone is speaking for us.  Don't let them take our CLAMs."    Got about 50 of these.

"What's a CLAM?"   Got about 1150 of these, many needing Google Translate to read.

"Tell Dououglus to put my 100,000 CLAMs on 0.5% louw, and tell the blououdy journalists tou stoup snououping around!  Domo arigatou!"    Got only one of these.  The signature was just a bunch of letters and numbers in random order, and it was at the top of the PM.  Weird.  It included a photograph of the sender, but I didn't recognize him, so I pitched it.

Grab popcorn

I am very surprised at the community's reaction to end digging.

Think of it not as a change to the original proposal. This is where you all are getting wrung up in.

Rather, think of Clam as a unique coin utilizing the incredibly technology of it's blockchain for voting.
Let me ask you: How many other coins are using the capability of the blockchain to it's absolute fullest?

Today Clam is a system where users are actively voting for consensus rule changes.
This will directly improve the further development of a Clams' unique features, thus allowing it to stand out from the rest.

The whole point of open-source software is to build upon it. How are we supposed to build upon a specific cryptocurrency when we're stuck with the initial rules?

Rules are meant to be broken. If you support the longevity of Clam you will embrace this innovative voting system and allow the consensus to form the new rules.

Collectively we are the founding fathers of this currency. Everybody has their say. And consensus rules.

You say new users so glibly. Which new users exactly? All of the new users in Crypto see clams as an unfair distribution these days. a distribution that only benefits the old timers that have been part of the crypto community.  It seems that Clam digging is a promise to the elite that held crypto at some past point in time. Also a promise to them that they can sit back and make money on the backs of those who have supported the Clam community. If they cared about clams they would have dug a long time ago.  Also a windfall promise for those who created any type of "possible" fractional reserve systems with the 3 best known coins.  

So it basically says: if one created a fractional reserve system, as an old time elite and held a lot of keys for users to send them coins while they simply showed DB digits then you can get rewarded big as clams climb. Granted, not all of these systems have been unfair however, with crypto's sorted history a large number of them have been and dozens if not hundreds of examples can be easily given. It is not just the mintpals and MTgox of the world, it is smaller less knows scam sites all over the globe.

This is who Clam's promise is to. How does this distribution make any sense anymore?  Does it not go against the basic premiss of crypto in general.  Is it not a promise similar to what the Federal Reserve does for today's already established elite institutions? That they can simply print money if they are in the proper pre-established position. Alienating the new comers with a blatantly public unfair policy (Do we hide this by simply changing the name and calling it a "promise"?).  It was a good experiment which I am sure had positive intentions but from an outside perspective it is looking a lot like everything that is wrong with the present fiat system. This should start to become apparent to everyone.

No, you have that backwards.

it's 36.65% of the whole Just-Dice weight.
50% of the Just-Dice weight didn't cast a vote.
So it's around 73% of the actively voting weight.

ie. 3 out of 4 of the weight that voted for anything voted to stop digging.

To see this, check https://just-dice.com/misc/clamour_weights.txt - here's a recent version with the numbers made more readable, and with non-5afa votes deleted:


560k didn't vote, representing ~50% of the total
1090 + 3808 + 8657 + 10124 + 17614 + 34914 + 47721 + 131975 + 164747 = 421k votes for 5afa, representing ~37% of the total.

You can diqus until you die, you wont convince them. And they will not convince you.

Well Satoshi's coins are a totally different thing than CLAM's undug coin for a number of reasons. For one, Satoshi's coins are very likely controlled by one person. That one person knew the value of his/her coins all along and had every opportunity to sell some or all. Because these coins have not moved in all this time, it is safe to assume they will never move. Clearly Satoshi does not have access to the coin, or simply has no great need/desire for money. Could it happen? Sure it could. But the risk is quite low considering those facts.

CLAMs undug coins are "maybe" lost? Maybe in the hands of random people who have never heard of CLAM thru all the evangelism and scouring the net trying to get free money by getting private keys? Maybe many are in the hands of a few singular individuals who ran some type of scam/script/exchange/casino where they had tons and tons of funded private keys? We have no idea who owns them, or what the intentions of those unknown people who find them. Again, I loved the initial distribution and thought it did a great job spreading CLAM to the masses in a seemingly fairly way, evangelizing crypto owners, etc. But I think those great effects have now passed and now we are left with just negative effects. Now we have some massive potential supply granted to people on an arbitrary date which may or may not ever see the market, but will be a drag on the market forever. And we are keeping them around for reasons that make no sense to me.




I agree 100%. CLAM is an amazing coin. How much better would it be if we can take away some of the headwinds? All great coins adapt.

I feel like for what the coin can currently do (play dice and gamble on a few sites and buy coffee and snacks on mine (HINT) and buy t-shirts from a guy who draws dicks), the market cap is currently doing quite well. The question becomes - are we looking for a quick payoff, or a slow build? Are we hodlers or pumpers and dumpers?

I think you are correct.

We should blacklist Satoshi's coin's - they represent too much risk.

/sarcasm

---

Sorry for the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm; but, I think the similarity bears mentioning.
There is a silver lining: at least our 'risk', as others have pointed out, reduces over time and represents the potential for growth via new users.

The digs are only part of the problem. The potential for the digs also weighs on the coin. The digs add supply which dilutes the value of individual holders (which is fine to a degree, though too quickly causes instability and turns off backers). The potential for big digs will only go away if all the coins are dug, which most of us agree will never happen. But that risk is there and nobody has a plan for it except wait for the supply to balloon enough to devalue the undug supply.

At some point, the coin's market cap becomes large enough to absorb the (theoretical) big digs without much damage. It could be rough in the early days, but if the fundamentals are good, things will be fine long term.

I don't think that's fair. Leaving the distribution out there forever screws all current and future owners of CLAM, not to mention potential buyers/adopters who were not part of the distro. or are turned off because of the distro. risks. Changing it would potentially screw some unknown people in the future who may have undug clams who happened to have balances in BTC/LTC/Doge addresses on the date of the distribution and have not yet heard of CLAM thru the scouring of all the crypto communities hunting for undug clams. The logic of "it hurts someone" can be in both arguments, for or against. But to me, the argument seems like "lets screw everybody who owns clams and who might have bought clams because there could be a few people out there who still might dig up some clams that aren't whale diggers who ran a website/service/script that left them with a cache of funded addresses".

Again, I'm not saying remove digging tomorrow. I'm saying, have a plan to remove it in the future. Set a date, get out the word. It would be the biggest thing to happen to CLAM since the initial distribution or JD switching to CLAM.