Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 248. (Read 1151373 times)

Just choose a block well in the future and let the market sort it out. People who want to buy or sell before the cutoff will do so. People who want to wait until after and just buy or sell one of the coins can do that. That is completely fair to everyone. No one gets any particular potential advantage from the choice of the block.

Furthermore it is also important to get a statement from participants such as Poloniex about what they are going to do, again well ahead of the cutoff. If they are going to honor the spin-off by retrieving the new coins and assigning them proportionately to customers' accounts people may want to take completely different actions than if they are going to keep the new coins for themselves (sounds silly perhaps, but another exchange actually states that explicitly in its Terms of Service) or not claim them at all.

Incorrect. That would be the case with a nonlinear scheme. But with a snapshot spin off where balances are proportional there is no manipulation possible by doing it in the future. There is simply a cutoff, known to everyone, where buying coins before that point gets you the new coins and buying coins after (presumably at a lower price) does not. In fact doing it in the past has more potential for manipulation as several people have already stated.

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Guess you guys want to alienate some users or kill the coin.


Really wish I would have checked the ann before installing the qt in an attempt to retrieve 2 old doge dats. It just seems like a waist of time now. When people look for clamcoin information they will stumble on all this bickering & how the community felt they best needed to f*ck-over stake-holders. Not a good image to put out there, and most of us have been around long enough to know how this all ends. The initial marketing ploy of "old dat redemption" was nice, but flawed. Now the coin will suffer either way (by exploit or by internal strife).




It's sh*ty when you genuinely have interest in a coin; Only to find the community coming apart at the seams.





Once again- Anyone have an updated bootstrap? mid October or around now?
 
 


good luck

This is how Clam was originally distributed, so those that dig/buy Clam should be familiar with that type of distribution.

2 days or a week before coin was made would be in past when coin was ready. But when saying take snapshot now and not have any real plans yet to make a coin make people not want to buy. And what manipulation you talk about? People buy more clam and price goes up you mean to secure getting the new coin? And after people got new coin clam market will drop far down.

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Snapshot would have to be in the past to avoid manipulation

I would support most of the alternatives, what ever dooglus choose or get people voting on.
1. Contunies everything as it is.
2. Changeing clam rules to not allow digging
3. Use a snapshot of clamchain to base a new coin on
Thats all fine for me.

But i think most investors wont support anything when its unknown.

You can also say everything will continue as normal and there will be taken a new snapshot in future a few days before a the new coin will be made.
It can be based on both snapshot or the last one.
Then people can safetly buy clam without worry jd will get a new coin.

+1 and yet i see no issue really with forking the coin, personally i would say the digging part was a mistake from start and afaik the main developers were told this could be an issue but was ignored (correct me if iam wrong there).

also i want to give dooglus my kudos how he handles the situation and i look forward to here from the main devs and not only from him, but imho a new coin isnt the best solution...

Greetings, Chuck

You're not responsible for "the best", or for CLAM.  You're responsible for Dooglus.  The internet is full of self-styled "victims" looking for someone to blame for their decisions.  That will never end.

Fuck it - take it all and put it on red, or 00.  Repeat 'til finished.  Then do a Satoshi.  He's revered, despite all the gnashing of teeth over blocksize, TXID malleability, large holdings, linkability, and all the other BTC imperfections.

Apologies. Yes I do.  I wasn't aware of that.  However, that helps explain why there is a large holder/digger in the coin who has no (emotional/rational) stake in the future of Clam and just sees it as representing BTC profit.  Many people day and margin trade this coin without any real personal interest or stake in the future development or survival of Clam or Clam 2.0, so how exactly is this learning from previous mistakes?  With the secret retrospective snapshot, the exact same result could occur i.e. large holder who wants to dump only for profit. Or am I missing something? Either way, in terms of PR, the way this is being handled is a disaster.  

IMO I think best to leave as is.  

I really really wonder how low will the dev team let the price go until they decide to get CLAM forked. Cause the digger s not going to stop, not now and not in 6 months cause I can bet he s got more addresses ready to dig.

Why? No sane person would dump at this rate without saying, wait, if I go slower, I might get much more BTC out of this cause I am effectively destroying the market.

The price went down from 0.006 to 0.001 within 2 moths since he started digging. No other PoS coin has suffered even close price decrease rate and I hold a lot of those.

Once more, if you want CLAM to live, you need to do something cause in 6 months CLAM will be worth peanuts and the diff would be so high it ll be pointless staking. Even now, one needs to invest 10 BTC in order to stake 20 CLAM per week which is 0.02. Let us be honest, there are much better options to make 0.02, if u you plan to invest 10 BTC.

I m not trying to attack CLAM, I have no interest in it anymore, I m just trying to point out this current system is not sustainable and needs to be changed, FAST. Not in 6 months.  

upon considering the new coin option I would like to present option D: Leave clam as is let nature take its course, if you want to run J-d.com as clam or not is your choice you are the owner you owe nothing to the community as to how you run your site. create a new coin with a new distribution model and either start a fresh site or switch j-d.com to the new coin but do not link anything from clam to the new coin do not try to associate clam to the new coin. This would be the only reasonable approach to a new coin imho as it would not take away from what clam has already has and it would not give people an incentive (free new coins for holding clams at block 73000) to consider clams less valuable. It would also stop most of the whole "saving the majority shareholders / premine" topic

Up until you took that snapshot dooglus this has all just been a discussion.  However, the act of taking that snapshot was an action and Evil does a great job laying out the problem.  You've now created pools of potential (and potential is the key word, another coin may not be created, even if one is you may not use that snapshot) haves and have nots.  I agree that was how clam did it, but given that all this has flowed from how clams were initially distributed, and there are other problems, e.g. getting my coins off exchanges, maybe that is not the best path to replicate.

I still think the best path is weathering the storm of the dig whale and working to make clam stronger and more accepted, JD is a great foundation, but it can't continue to be the only real reason to own clam.

However, if that is not possible because "no one will ever buy clam with the dig whale out there slowly selling for months to come", I don't have any real problem with another coin.  I think it's a fine idea.  New coins are created every day and it might be nice for one to have a built in user base and have been carefully considered.  However, as many others have noted, you may want to consider a "swap" or a "burn" or an IPO as the initial distribution method.  

I think taking a surprise snapshot in the middle of the discussion is why things have taken a bit of a nasty turn both here and in JD chat.  Obviously, I think thoughtful consideration is a good thing and appreciate you trying to foster that with your posts and recaps which I have found excellent.

As with most internet chats, I think you should ignore the people on JD chat who don't want you to share your thinking with the community.  You are one of the sanest, most trusted and intelligent people out there.  Thanks.

I expect he's referring to fear that there's a wallet out there that could instantly dig up more than 51% of the active supply and begin re-writing the CLAM blockchain from the most recent snapshot.

The active supply is currently just under 1.2 million CLAMs. So a wallet with 300k funded addresses would be able to pull off such an attack.

My share of the total active CLAM supply has been steadily shrinking over time due to dilution from the digger and the increase of the JD bankroll.

The further back you push the snapshot the better for my bottom line.


I didn't hear about CLAM until after it had launched. I was able to dig some small (2 digit) number of addresses. Maybe 27 of them. Something like that.


So the CLAM project account was created around the same time as the CLAM project itself? That's highly suspicious, eh?


Sites like walletexplorer.com attempt to answer such questions by analyzing which addresses appear together as inputs to a transaction. If A and B are inputs to a transaction it's likely that A and B are in the same wallet. If B and C are inputs to another transaction then it's likely that all 3 of A, B, and C are in the same wallet. walletexplorer.com applies this across the whole blockchain to partition the set of all addresses into "clusters" of addresses which it's likely belong to the same wallet. Using coinjoin it is possible to thwart such analysis and cause independent clusters to merge, but for the most part walletexplorer.com's analysis is probably accurate.

Most of the "whale digger" addresses appear to be in a cluster labelled "BetVIP.com" by one of the wallet explorer sites. I never heard of that site, and find it hard to believe it was big enough to have created 100k funded BTC addresses organically, but I've not spent much time researching the whale digger. It doesn't really matter who he is.

I think that's pretty normal in altcoin world - often hard to reach a concensus, or even intelligent discussion sometimes 

For the record I don't think you are the "bad guy".

I think you are going to have to make the call, and some people will not be happy some will. You cant please all the people all the time.

So I don't have to spend time (in which I should be coding ) reading the past * days discussion could you please summarise the advantages / reasons for starting Doogcoin?

Yes, and that is exactly the sentiment that spurred me into stirring up this whole discussion all those weeks ago.

What, if anything, do you think we (the CLAM community) should do about it?

CLAM  was built by retrospectively choosing a snapshot block.

Don't you see the contradiction in your two sentences?