[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 281.

dooglus

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Why not create a distribution to clam holders/supporters before the digger started and call it Pearl or something more clever

The new coin could be an experiment that exists with Clam and will allow people to have a choice

I am thinking similar property's with clam and just a smaller distribution

If the dice sites supported the new coin, that would be awesome as well.

You know where the CLAMs were before the digger started? There were almost all in the JD staking wallet.

Using a snapshot of the blockchain from that point in time would give almost all the coins to me...

crazyivan

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Quote from: dooglus on October 18, 2015, 12:39:33 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 17, 2015, 08:07:47 PM

The digging could be done next week if there was a Bid that could support it. I'm sure the digger is more scared of us, than we are of them. They just want to get their BTC and bounce.

Just a couple of weeks ago there was more than 100 BTC of buy orders at or above the current price. It didn't tempt the digger then. Why do you think it would now?

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 17, 2015, 08:07:47 PM

I've thought further about the conversation in the Just-Dice room last evening and I've been trying to imagine it as if it was Satoshi selling his BTC.

I'm sure some people would want to cut Satoshi off or impose addition "age" fees on the transactions. I don't like it! Let the digger dig!

Maybe it would be a good idea to try having the discussion here too.

I think I started it by saying that CLAM isn't very useful as a currency right now, because we have a huge amount of digging going on, which puts a constant downward pressure on the price, and results in CLAM being a bad investment. Then I asked if people agreed (almost all did) and asked for suggestions as to what if anything we could or should do about it.

I understand Bay's point of view. He has a financial interest in digging continuing as it currently is. But what does anyone else think?

Some suggestions that came up last night:

(this isn't a quote of anything, but I don't know how to make a block of text without saying 'quote')

Quote

a) CreativeCuriosity has for a while now had an idea of changing the fee structure for CLAM. It's quite wide-ranging, and aims to stop us ever having to go through the whole "large block" debate that is currently dividing the Bitcoin community. Her plan is to have the block size limit and transaction fees adjust based on historical block sizes such that the market finds its own level. As a part of this the transaction fee would depend on the amount of this an output spent on the blockchain before it could be pruned, since it costs everyone more to store an output for 5 years and to store it for 5 minutes.

While interesting, I don't think this really addresses the problems caused by the ongoing digging activity.

b) Some kind of a hard fork could reduce the value of un-dug CLAMs over time in some way or another.

The reduction could range from a total end to digging (which some argue removes one of the unique selling points of the coin) to such a small reduction that it would have no effect. The hard fork would need to be planned and announced in advance to give people a chance to update their client software, and so the digger would simply dig all his coins before the fork happened, unless he really isn't paying attention.

c) CC seems to be of the opinion that we can just ride this out, and everything will be fine. Since the price of CLAM is down, the digger will for some reason start selling much faster and run out of his stash within a month or two.

I think the reasoning is that he wants a certain number of BTC per day from his dumping, and so that requires ever increasing numbers of CLAM per day - but the dig chart doesn't support that idea. His rate of digging over time seems pretty constant despite the big price drop.

d) Just-Dice should stop using CLAM and use something else instead, with a predictable supply going forward. It could be a fork of CLAM, so everyone keeps their current balance, but on a separate chain.

This seems much like (b), but presumably without the blessing of the CLAM devs. Such a contentious hard fork isn't good for anyone.

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.

I think option b) would be preferable solution. I understand the current system was set up as the most effective and easiest way to distribute CLAM among crypto community. However, we have come to a point where we have to ask our self "is that it"? What are we going to do from this point forward? Cause if CLAM s all about digging and distributing CLAM to people who dump it immediately as they get it, then this coins s got no future. I read opinions saying, only 6 more months until he finishes digging, unless he s got another wallet. Only 1 year until he stops dumping and so.

Consider the current situation. If the whale or some other whale continue employing this tactics and keep dumping day after day for 1 year, bringing the price down on a daily basis. How many of us s gonna be around if this continues? What s CLAM reputation going to look like in a year if this continues? Would you really be ready to see CLAM price go down to peanuts due to 1 year of digging? Who would buy it at that point knowing this might continue at any point?

All in all, the idea to distribute CLAM this was s been great. However, it s time to steer this ship in a different direction. Please do not make this about my personal loss/gain. Just ask yourself, if you knew he s gonna continue dumping for a year, which is possible, would you buy a single CLAM in the meantime? If the answer s no, how do you expect CLAM to survive and develop. Nah, something should be done.

freedomno1

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Learning the troll avoidance button :)

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 08:27:56 AM

Calling this an investment is the mistake. This is Free money. He didn't spend any of his own money to get it. A lot of folks that claim their clams are not CLAMS investors, they claim and then sell them.

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

True enough if you want to maximize your free money you tend to try and make the most out of it though.
Either way an accelerated dump to remove his position or investment into using it would do wonders.

BayAreaCoins

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Quote from: dooglus on October 18, 2015, 12:39:33 AM

Just a couple of weeks ago there was more than 100 BTC of buy orders at or above the current price. It didn't tempt the digger then. Why do you think it would now?

I think the "tone" of the market has changed since a few weeks ago. Surely the digger will feel that and will feel the fact that more and more pressure is being added to the market encouraging others to dig their CLAMs.

The way I see it the digger basically "set the hook" on investors. When a fish first bites your bait... you let it set in for a second so you really have them on the hook.

"Well I already have $2000 into CLAM that I don't want to use... so I'll spend another $1000 to try to support it."

Quote from: dooglus on October 18, 2015, 12:39:33 AM

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.

I think the fact that people are unhappy will encourage the digger to take the potential profits faster now than any time before.

If I'm correct this will bring:

A: Confidence to the markets.

B: Encourage the digger speed up this bleeding process so that they don't lose "free" BTC to other new diggers.

I just think it is a win win over all.

dooglus

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Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 17, 2015, 08:07:47 PM

The digging could be done next week if there was a Bid that could support it. I'm sure the digger is more scared of us, than we are of them. They just want to get their BTC and bounce.

Just a couple of weeks ago there was more than 100 BTC of buy orders at or above the current price. It didn't tempt the digger then. Why do you think it would now?

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 17, 2015, 08:07:47 PM

I've thought further about the conversation in the Just-Dice room last evening and I've been trying to imagine it as if it was Satoshi selling his BTC.

I'm sure some people would want to cut Satoshi off or impose addition "age" fees on the transactions. I don't like it! Let the digger dig!

Maybe it would be a good idea to try having the discussion here too.

I think I started it by saying that CLAM isn't very useful as a currency right now, because we have a huge amount of digging going on, which puts a constant downward pressure on the price, and results in CLAM being a bad investment. Then I asked if people agreed (almost all did) and asked for suggestions as to what if anything we could or should do about it.

I understand Bay's point of view. He has a financial interest in digging continuing as it currently is. But what does anyone else think?

Some suggestions that came up last night:

(this isn't a quote of anything, but I don't know how to make a block of text without saying 'quote')

Quote

a) CreativeCuriosity has for a while now had an idea of changing the fee structure for CLAM. It's quite wide-ranging, and aims to stop us ever having to go through the whole "large block" debate that is currently dividing the Bitcoin community. Her plan is to have the block size limit and transaction fees adjust based on historical block sizes such that the market finds its own level. As a part of this the transaction fee would depend on the amount of this an output spent on the blockchain before it could be pruned, since it costs everyone more to store an output for 5 years and to store it for 5 minutes.

While interesting, I don't think this really addresses the problems caused by the ongoing digging activity.

b) Some kind of a hard fork could reduce the value of un-dug CLAMs over time in some way or another.

The reduction could range from a total end to digging (which some argue removes one of the unique selling points of the coin) to such a small reduction that it would have no effect. The hard fork would need to be planned and announced in advance to give people a chance to update their client software, and so the digger would simply dig all his coins before the fork happened, unless he really isn't paying attention.

c) CC seems to be of the opinion that we can just ride this out, and everything will be fine. Since the price of CLAM is down, the digger will for some reason start selling much faster and run out of his stash within a month or two.

I think the reasoning is that he wants a certain number of BTC per day from his dumping, and so that requires ever increasing numbers of CLAM per day - but the dig chart doesn't support that idea. His rate of digging over time seems pretty constant despite the big price drop.

d) Just-Dice should stop using CLAM and use something else instead, with a predictable supply going forward. It could be a fork of CLAM, so everyone keeps their current balance, but on a separate chain.

This seems much like (b), but presumably without the blessing of the CLAM devs. Such a contentious hard fork isn't good for anyone.

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.

BayAreaCoins

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Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 08:27:56 AM

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

The digging could be done next week if there was a Bid that could support it. I'm sure the digger is more scared of us, than we are of them. They just want to get their BTC and bounce.

People need to put up or shut up. Money talks and bullshit walks.

I've thought further about the conversation in the Just-Dice room last evening and I've been trying to imagine it as if it was Satoshi selling his BTC.

I'm sure some people would want to cut Satoshi off or impose addition "age" fees on the transactions. I don't like it! Let the digger dig!

dooglus

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Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 03:38:25 PM

You made me have to look at the blockchain... Tongue

First block was 733 and last was 8995 So there were 8262 blocks with clammettes. So 8995-6539 means he's been through 2456 block already. 2456/8262 = .2972

See http://dpaste.com/1KZAGHD

Each line is:

# block number
# number of 4.6 CLAMs created in that block
# cumulative number of 4.6 CLAMs so far
# percentage of the way through the distribution from the start
# percentage of the way through the distribution from the end

So find the line for block 6539:

6539 356 2338198 72.89 27.11

ie. it's 27.11% of the way from the end.

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 03:38:25 PM

Also some of the blocks in the 733-8995 range are not distribution blocks. I notice the last dig was blocks 6519 and 6521. Looking at 6520 it's only for 2 clams. Then I figured maybe we skipped every other block. 6518 is for 2 clams too. But 6517 is also 2 clams. So not just every other block.

Different blocks have different numbers of 4.6's. So just counting blocks isn't very accurate.

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 03:38:25 PM

Doog, I don't remember how you estimated his total, but I though you took into account some of the non-distributed clam blocks. I don't know if Xploited has the exact number of distribution blocks.

I think I was looking at some of the bigger blocks he had already dug through, calculated how many of the CLAMs he dug from that block, and found the percentage was much the same from block to block and so extrapolated for the whole distribution.

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 03:38:25 PM

I also looked at a few of his transactions. I was looking to see if I could see a trend, of sending clams to poloniex. Several of the digs ended up in the same address with a total of 46.2 clams, or 10 rewards. Almost like he's grouping the clams for staking. Then there were other addresses that ended up with 4 or 9 clams. I couldn't find a pattern.

I think those are poloniex deposit addresses he's sending to. Did you find any that ever staked? I don't think poloniex stakes their wallets.

I don't know why he keeps switching deposit addresses. Maybe he's making new poloniex accounts every 10 digs? That would explain it I guess. But he could also be clicking the 'new address' button to change addresses.

Edit: here's the same data in chart form.

He's dug down to block 6516, so has dug around 27% of the CLAMs.

(Of course we don't know that he doesn't have another couple of wallets of the same size which he will start working on once he's done with this one)

chilly2k

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Quote from: dooglus on October 17, 2015, 10:51:27 AM

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 08:27:56 AM

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

He's currently working on block 6539.

If you list all the initial distribution CLAMs in reverse order of the block in which they were created, block 6539 is 27% of the way through.

I don't know of a better way to estimate how far through he is.

You made me have to look at the blockchain... Tongue

First block was 733 and last was 8995 So there were 8262 blocks with clammettes. So 8995-6539 means he's been through 2456 block already. 2456/8262 = .2972

My initial assumption was we started at block 1000 and went to block 10000.

Of course even that is an estimate. No way of telling exactly how many rewards per block he will get.

Also some of the blocks in the 733-8995 range are not distribution blocks. I notice the last dig was blocks 6519 and 6521. Looking at 6520 it's only for 2 clams. Then I figured maybe we skipped every other block. 6518 is for 2 clams too. But 6517 is also 2 clams. So not just every other block.

Doog, I don't remember how you estimated his total, but I though you took into account some of the non-distributed clam blocks. I don't know if Xploited has the exact number of distribution blocks.

I also looked at a few of his transactions. I was looking to see if I could see a trend, of sending clams to poloniex. Several of the digs ended up in the same address with a total of 46.2 clams, or 10 rewards. Almost like he's grouping the clams for staking. Then there were other addresses that ended up with 4 or 9 clams. I couldn't find a pattern.

crazyivan

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Quote from: dooglus on October 17, 2015, 10:51:27 AM

Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 08:27:56 AM

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

He's currently working on block 6539.

If you list all the initial distribution CLAMs in reverse order of the block in which they were created, block 6539 is 27% of the way through.

I don't know of a better way to estimate how far through he is.

Somehow I cannot believe a person who s one of the major crypto currency holders with so many addresses to dig simply to be unaware of how much money he s been losing by this mindless dumping. There must be a plan behind this, maybe needs lots of BTC for something soon.

dooglus

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Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 08:27:56 AM

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

He's currently working on block 6539.

If you list all the initial distribution CLAMs in reverse order of the block in which they were created, block 6539 is 27% of the way through.

I don't know of a better way to estimate how far through he is.

crazyivan

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Quote from: chilly2k on October 17, 2015, 08:27:56 AM

Quote from: freedomno1 on October 17, 2015, 06:58:50 AM

Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 06:47:03 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.
I can imagine the price being about half of it's peak. But an 80 percent drop is silly.
Not to mention the BTC price is causing sells on top of everything.

Seems like CLAMs is due for a bounce from this bottom.

Nothing justifies 20-30% drop per day. No sane investor s gonna sell that way. Unless he wants to intentionally drive the price down or destroy the coin. Since he hold a lot of it I highly doubt he wants to destroy it. So, either he s insane or he s got a plan.

Well there is always the possibility the whales an idiot and doesn't realize that this strategy is a mistake, and to much dumping is counter-intuitive.
They stake and have a big wallet but they have no sense of market management if all they want to do is dump coins for 2 years (which is likely an overshoot as 2011-2013 txts would be quite something) then they should do something to contribute to increase the value of their investment and multiply their return.
(Lol made me think it was an Einstein moment)

Calling this an investment is the mistake. This is Free money. He didn't spend any of his own money to get it. A lot of folks that claim their clams are not CLAMS investors, they claim and then sell them.

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

At this rate, CLAM s got no 4 months. I hope you re wrong.

dooglus

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Quote from: uvwvj on October 17, 2015, 09:19:34 AM

[his usual crap]

I don't know if it's possible to auto-delete posts by particular posters in a self-moderated thread...

uvwvj

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Finally clam scammers its happening. Clams are going down faster than a Kardasihian on a black guy.

chilly2k

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Quote from: freedomno1 on October 17, 2015, 06:58:50 AM

Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 06:47:03 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.
I can imagine the price being about half of it's peak. But an 80 percent drop is silly.
Not to mention the BTC price is causing sells on top of everything.

Seems like CLAMs is due for a bounce from this bottom.

Nothing justifies 20-30% drop per day. No sane investor s gonna sell that way. Unless he wants to intentionally drive the price down or destroy the coin. Since he hold a lot of it I highly doubt he wants to destroy it. So, either he s insane or he s got a plan.

Well there is always the possibility the whales an idiot and doesn't realize that this strategy is a mistake, and to much dumping is counter-intuitive.
They stake and have a big wallet but they have no sense of market management if all they want to do is dump coins for 2 years (which is likely an overshoot as 2011-2013 txts would be quite something) then they should do something to contribute to increase the value of their investment and multiply their return.
(Lol made me think it was an Einstein moment)

Calling this an investment is the mistake. This is Free money. He didn't spend any of his own money to get it. A lot of folks that claim their clams are not CLAMS investors, they claim and then sell them.

I estimated he was 36% done. So maybe another 4 months of dumping.

smooth

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Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 06:47:03 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.
I can imagine the price being about half of it's peak. But an 80 percent drop is silly.
Not to mention the BTC price is causing sells on top of everything.

Seems like CLAMs is due for a bounce from this bottom.

Nothing justifies 20-30% drop per day. No sane investor s gonna sell that way. Unless he wants to intentionally drive the price down or destroy the coin. Since he hold a lot of it I highly doubt he wants to destroy it. So, either he s insane or he s got a plan.

As I said earlier you can't assume that everything that happens on Polo is one whale digger dumping. There are most certainly other people trading. People who think that it's going to drop (either due to the digger or for whatever other reason, possibly self-fulfilling) will want to get out and drive it down if there aren't a lot of buyers. That may have nothing to do with digging at all. No way to tell.

smooth

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Quote from: freedomno1 on October 17, 2015, 06:58:50 AM

Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 06:47:03 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.
I can imagine the price being about half of it's peak. But an 80 percent drop is silly.
Not to mention the BTC price is causing sells on top of everything.

Seems like CLAMs is due for a bounce from this bottom.

Nothing justifies 20-30% drop per day. No sane investor s gonna sell that way. Unless he wants to intentionally drive the price down or destroy the coin. Since he hold a lot of it I highly doubt he wants to destroy it. So, either he s insane or he s got a plan.

Well there is always the possibility the whales an idiot and doesn't realize that this strategy is a mistake, and to much dumping is counter-intuitive.

As much as CLAM supporters might be convinced otherwise, it is not clear that the strategy is a mistake. He may simply believe that CLAM has no future and he just wants to get as much value out as quickly as possible before it fails.

Maybe right, maybe wrong, but you can't take as a given that he's an idiot, his strategy is all wrong, and dumping is all a mistake.

smooth

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Quote from: TooDumbForBitcoin on October 17, 2015, 07:08:49 AM

Quote from: SuperClam on October 17, 2015, 07:02:49 AM

Quote from: eyeknock on October 17, 2015, 06:47:43 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.

well it always depend on the "guy" who is doing it, yes? maybe he is getting exactly whats he want, i mean to dump like hell all those coins.

Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 04:28:40 AM

As soon as he finishes? Have you seen his numbers? He can keep selling for two more years.

that phrase scared me and clams fans a lot ( i think ) :S

We, of course, can't guess the digger's sell rate.

However, the two-year estimation is quite..... drastic, and likely an exaggeration.

He has only been digging for a handful of weeks and is estimated to be 1/4 to 1/3 complete.

Polo volume for CLAM is 66BTC daily, =$16,000 daily.

Taking Dooglus's CLAM market cap of $1,000,000 results in 60 days max of present level of activity.

You can't assume that all polo trading volume has anything to do with the whale digger. It certainly does not.

MRKLYE

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Designer - Developer

A brief address on the state of CLAM:
(turn down your speakers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5gW90AXwl4

Also, Check out http://kingklye.com/shop for the Official CLAM and Just-Dice.com merchandise!

Payments in CLAM/BTC/LTC/DOGE/FLO are accepted!

TooDumbForBitcoin

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Quote from: SuperClam on October 17, 2015, 07:02:49 AM

Quote from: eyeknock on October 17, 2015, 06:47:43 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.

well it always depend on the "guy" who is doing it, yes? maybe he is getting exactly whats he want, i mean to dump like hell all those coins.

Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 04:28:40 AM

As soon as he finishes? Have you seen his numbers? He can keep selling for two more years.

that phrase scared me and clams fans a lot ( i think ) :S

We, of course, can't guess the digger's sell rate.

However, the two-year estimation is quite..... drastic, and likely an exaggeration.

He has only been digging for a handful of weeks and is estimated to be 1/4 to 1/3 complete.

Polo volume for CLAM is 66BTC daily, =$16,000 daily.

Taking Dooglus's CLAM market cap of $1,000,000 results in 60 days max of present level of activity.

SuperClam

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Quote from: eyeknock on October 17, 2015, 06:47:43 AM

Quote from: YoyodyneSystems on October 17, 2015, 06:03:26 AM

Even with all digging (from this large digger) completed the amount of new coins doesn't justify such a low price.

well it always depend on the "guy" who is doing it, yes? maybe he is getting exactly whats he want, i mean to dump like hell all those coins.

Quote from: crazyivan on October 17, 2015, 04:28:40 AM

As soon as he finishes? Have you seen his numbers? He can keep selling for two more years.

that phrase scared me and clams fans a lot ( i think ) :S

We, of course, can't guess the digger's sell rate.

However, the two-year estimation is quite..... drastic, and likely an exaggeration.

He has only been digging for a handful of weeks and is estimated to be 1/4 to 1/3 complete.

Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 281. (Read 1151252 times)