Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 278. (Read 1151252 times)

seems like clam is done, not much backing.

I'm inclined to support the opinion of dooglus that something needs to be done. If it were to come down to some kind of a vote, the clamspeech part of staking txs could be used. (I say this as someone who stakes.)

Here's another idea to put on the table. Maybe digging could be slowed down in some way. For example, a coin from a block before X (where X is when the initial distribution stopped) can only be spent in a tx that stakes the coin. This would place a limit on the velocity of digging without actually taking away the ability to dig the coin.

I agree with crazyivan.  The developers need to do something now.  Thank you dooglas and others for helping me to start digging and having some fun while it lasted. I dug, bought, sold and bought.  For now, I am out.

Yes, I did sell most of it a few days ago and I do intent to re-buy again if there s some kind of solution for the problem available. I still do hold some and I have my buy orders set at a specific price, in case of some form or rebound. That s the usual trading tactics although I m not a trader. I prefer staking.
But this is not about me, there are significantly larger holder around.

About every single trade having someone buying, that s true. However, whoever s buying now s extremely inexperienced and will lose money. We will see 0.0001 before next Monday if he continues to dump.

Every single trade has someone buying. People are betting that this is indeed the bottom, and they stand to make nice gains from here. You apparently disagree. Have you sold all your CLAMs (if nothing else to rebuy lower)?

Nah, I m saying exactly what I stated.

I m saying the whale s not sane cause he could earn much more if he opted to sell lower amounts over prolonged period of time. This way he would be able to get 5x higher price per CLAM he gets now. That s no sane IMHO. The fact he does not do that supports my theory he s not going to stop until he completely kills CLAM.

I am also saying no other sane investor would place a buy order now knowing he the digger whale s going to keep dumping and dumping. Would you buy anything now?

You seem to be saying that at the current price it would be insane to sell and also insane to buy.

How do you feel about holding?

How much would your stake get back?

I think the intention is that that would be addressed by smoothing the fee payout over time.

For example, each block you stake gives you 10% of the "reward pool", leaving the other 90% in the pool. So any unusually big fee can't be claimed by the person paying the fee. He gets only 10% of it back. I guess the fee could even only be added to the pool N blocks after it is staked, so the fee payer doesn't even get to keep that 10% by withholding his transaction until he can stake.

I repeat again, I have a feeling we re dealing with the person, the digger, who simply does care about anything at all but unloading every single CLAM he s about to get his hands on.
The data from the last couple of weeks support that. FFS, he s making the market drop at 10-25% PER DAY. Yes, @chriswen, you responded to my post about 10% per day drop as being exaggeration. Well, CLAM has gone down 25% today, compared to yesterday. Let see what s going to happen tomorrow but according to the sell side at Polo, it s gonna be the same, if not even worse. Buy orders have dropped to 35 BTC cause no single sane person s going to buy having in mind his actions.

I agree with one of the previous posts about the simplest solution being the best one, that s Occam's razor, among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. What is the simplest solution in our case, which ll prevent him from destroying the market? Obviously a hard fork which would cut all digging.

This is not something unheard of, other coins do it as well. If there s some external issue which hampers development of the coin, you fix it. I see TEK community s been discussing a similar hard work solution due to certain number of individuals trying to influence the system by intentionally and artificially increasing PoS TEK difficulty by splitting their holding into dozens of small blocks. There s one guy holding 500k of TEK, all divided in 1k blocks. The more competing blocks are there trying to stake, the higher is the PoS difficulty.

I know some of you re going to say I am too pessimistic but I strongly feel, if devs dont react, we ll have CLAM at 0.0001 by the end of this week and there will be NO return after that cause even at that price, he wont stop. HE WILL NOT STOP as long as he can get 1/10 of cent from each of this CLAM.   

I think we should start focusing on the positive, how do i propose that?
- Success is all about the community, instead of focusing about the clam digger, let's focus on ways 'as suggested' on improvements for clam.
1. Let's handle these improvements via a clam voting system on the chain (ledger) (focus our energy in the positive places & earn the respect of a strong community)
2. Let focus on marketing clam and growing the clam community, the price currently supports growing a huge community for long-term growth.
- Market, spread the word about clam, couldn't be a better time
- let's encourage further development of apps utilizing clam - i for one would support new initiatives in this regard as i am sure many will.

In my opinion, by looking at the above, focus heavily on the community and keeping clam's integrity in-tact - will show everyone that clam is in it for the long haul

thx

Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't be done (I think I even said that in the first message) or that it shouldn't be done if it can't be perfect. I was only pointing out some of the perhaps less obvious complications with it.

I'm also skeptical to the extent that the intent is to kill off unclaimed CLAMs in (large) part or whole in order to drive the current price higher. On top of potentially killing trust by creating a precedent of tinkering with parameters when some investors don't happen to like what the market is doing to the price, the magnitude of the fee to do that would have to be quite large to make a big dent in a 4.6 CLAM UXTO being held for a couple of years, and that would likely have big impact on other uses of the coin.

But if the intent and magnitude of it is in line with actual costs and making the coin more efficient and therefore more valuable, then it seems like a good direction to pursue.

One other complication by the way is that a large stakeholder can simply mine his own transactions without broadcasting them, and keep the fee. Or even make a deal with a large stakeholder to mine the transactions and rebate much of the fee. Unless there is a large demand for transactions and/or a small block size, the cost of doing this remains close to zero.


I think that is very possible and good reason to not try to prop up the price with tinkering. Consider if nothing radical is done and the coin still gets through it. The added value from proven resiliency will be significant.

I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that the idea I attempted to outline in THIS post is not perfect.

It needs tweaking, as smooth has identified, to match our intentions as closely as possible with the actual outcome.
Perfection may not be possible; or, a better idea may emerge.

Much like distribution, where it would have made more sense to walk around and hand a paper-wallet to every individual person in the world, we only have access to a small toolbox of variables.  From these variables, our mission is to create incentives that most closely match our vision.  These incentives include protection against DDoS and bloat attacks, improved security and decentralization of block creation, resistance to censorship and interference in the peer-to-peer system, resource efficiency, and economic sustainability.

I know many are afraid.
I personally believe that we will get through this; and, more importantly, be stronger for it.

I can't prove that - and I don't expect nor want you take my word for it.
But, I believe it.

We will make wise choices together, weather the storms that it makes sense to weather, battle those that must be fought and emerge with better software, a stronger network and, inevitably, whether by patience or struggle, one less digger.

Interesting point - though this has a positive impact on the utxo assuming an implementation of pruning.
The concept was conceived "backward" as you suggest; with the anticipation that once an output was "under-water" it would be pruned and attributed as fee.

Yes


No. You have to also have coins to stake. Even if you have a few coins you are not a significant staker and have no significant say in the decision whether to include transactions (the next block will just include them even if you don't, and you will still incur the storage cost).

Unless you want the system to concentrate into one where only the largest stake holders actually run nodes and stake. (Not so different from the present, but is this really the ideal?)

Even then, there is a time disparity. Storage costs are paid to the staker now, but costs are incurred by anyone running a node in the future (or alternately in the past if you view the fee as backward-looking which seems to be implied by the structure). Again, trying to bring these into equilibrium has consequences that are probably not what is desired (set of node operators and stakers becomes static).

As an investor I'd say just cut the digging. That's indeed a big problem that a single person or a single group can be in control of so much CLAMS suddenly. But I'm not wise enough to say if it's good for CLAM long term.
Short-term that would make investors happy though...
It seems that the digger is letting the price going up a little again though for the moment.

if it is true that this price cratering is due to ONE big whale digger! I guess that obviously something must be done to prevent further actions like this from him or any other whale digger that mybe do not know yet to have so much power into the clams network! Even an hard fork at this point could be better than the actual situation

Regards

Re-read what I said. JD only has that many CLAMs because people agree with how JD acts. If JD was to attempt to make an unpopular change to the CLAM rules I'm sure it would quickly lose its position as majority staker.

How many coins is JD staking again a day?  1300 of 1440?

Clam feels like a dictatorship for sure at this point and is absolutely centralized.

Example:


My site is a private service.  Not a open source community project with select power trips.

Well, the simplest and fastest idea to implement is always "do nothing", closely followed by "cut off all digging with a hard fork".

Neither seems optimal.