[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 375.

dooglus

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Quote from: SuperClam on February 21, 2015, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 02:41:37 PM

I've asked before and don't think I've seen an answer: are the "expression of * freedom: *" lines a work in progress? Are they templates to be filled in with real statements about each religion/whatever? Because it seems to me that currently the "expressions" aren't actually expressing anything - they're just a list of religions and suchlike.

The initial/default CLAMspeech list should exist in code at the official git repository.
We welcome proposed additions or changes.

OK, but I think you miss my point. To pick a random example the first tx I looked at says:

"clam-speech" : "Expression of Political Freedom: Nazism"

I'm saying that I don't think that is an expression of political freedom. It's just a word. Just as the string "one sausage" isn't a sausage, it's just some words. And so "Expression of Political Freedom: Nazism" looks to me like a template that needs to be filled in. If it said "White people are the best, especially blue-eyed blonde-haired ones" then that's an expression - it's saying something. I'm not sure a simple list of words *is*. I'm not a lawyer (nor an expert on Nazism, clearly), but it just kind of bugs me that the default speech list contains the *word* expression a lot, but never actually expresses anything.

SuperClam

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CLAM Developer

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 02:41:37 PM

Quote from: SuperClam on February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM

The concept is deceptively simple: political and religious expression/speech is legally protected in many jurisdictions around the world.
There are two facets of the feature that mutually protect each other:
1. The ability to guarantee freedom of speech by hosting it on the block chain;
2. Possibly more importantly, protection of the block chain by having expressions of protected speech embedded in it.

What do you think of the idea of having JD take random lines from its on-site chat as its "CLAMspeech" for the blocks it stakes?

Absolutely.

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 02:41:37 PM

That way you get a much wider range of "expression" in the blockchain - though some of it may not be the kind of stuff you want preserved forever.
I've asked before and don't think I've seen an answer: are the "expression of * freedom: *" lines a work in progress? Are they templates to be filled in with real statements about each religion/whatever? Because it seems to me that currently the "expressions" aren't actually expressing anything - they're just a list of religions and suchlike.

The initial/default CLAMspeech list should exist in code at the official git repository.
We welcome proposed additions or changes.

We could certainly use ideas and advice is this regard.

This is a much more complex issue than it appears at first glance.

Initially, the idea was to have a much smaller initial list, with the expectation that users would add additional expressions as they saw fit.

Such an activity becomes very difficult, very quickly.
What exactly "deserves" to exist in the list?
Maybe more importantly, who are we to say a given item doesn't?
Does having a larger (as opposed to empty or small) list provide the opportunity for users to have some degree of psuedo-anonymity and still be able to choose specific items to broadcast?

One option would be provide a sort of feed, similar to some social websites. Users would see a list of previously sent "expressions" and could choose to either disregard them or add them with a simple click to their personal list. A sort of "re-tweet" if you will.
Interesting? Maybe.

Ideas are welcome.

coric

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ExToke - Fee Free Trading

Reminds me of little Bobby Tables. Yes, a dancing banana is certainly harmless, though I think it is the block explorer's problem, not the client itself

SuperClam

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CLAM Developer

Quote from: Vortex20000 on February 21, 2015, 01:54:37 AM

Quote from: dooglus on February 21, 2015, 01:23:26 AM

It's also useful for messing with the block explorer. Someone sent a transaction with the CLAMspeech '

' and the image ended up rendered on the block explorer page.
I think they fixed that now though. Sad

Wow, that's cool... is it the dancing banana used mostly for logins? Cheesy

The dancing banana was an interesting lesson; and just about the least malicious way to discover what could have been a serious issue.
Believe it or not, it was appreciated Grin

Quote from: huryde on February 20, 2015, 10:17:12 PM

Quote from: SuperClam on February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM

As an aside, CLAMspeech also provides an interesting opportunity for additional functionality on top of the protocol.
Services such as Counterparty become much simpler to implement with a ready-made field in which could be placed data to be parsed and consensus approved.

This, this is what could make this coin.

Another interesting use-case that we will likely be seeing sooner, rather than later: in client proof-of-existence.
For those not familiar, it would basically provide an on the block chain notary service where messages and files could be hashed and inserted to prove their existence. Not a new idea or feature in the crypto space but having it in client and searchable via UI or RPC would be interesting if nothing else.

Vortex20000

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sucker got hacked and screwed --Toad

Quote from: dooglus on February 21, 2015, 01:23:26 AM

Quote from: huryde on February 20, 2015, 10:17:12 PM

Quote from: SuperClam on February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM

As an aside, CLAMspeech also provides an interesting opportunity for additional functionality on top of the protocol.
Services such as Counterparty become much simpler to implement with a ready-made field in which could be placed data to be parsed and consensus approved.

This, this is what could make this coin.

It's also useful for messing with the block explorer. Someone sent a transaction with the CLAMspeech '

' and the image ended up rendered on the block explorer page.

I think they fixed that now though. Sad

Wow, that's cool... is it the dancing banana used mostly for logins? Cheesy

dooglus

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I updated this post about the bootstrap.dat file that I maintain to help people get started with the blockchain more easily.

dooglus

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Quote from: huryde on February 20, 2015, 10:17:12 PM

Quote from: SuperClam on February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM

As an aside, CLAMspeech also provides an interesting opportunity for additional functionality on top of the protocol.
Services such as Counterparty become much simpler to implement with a ready-made field in which could be placed data to be parsed and consensus approved.

This, this is what could make this coin.

It's also useful for messing with the block explorer. Someone sent a transaction with the CLAMspeech '

' and the image ended up rendered on the block explorer page.

I think they fixed that now though. Sad

huryde

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Quote from: SuperClam on February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM

As an aside, CLAMspeech also provides an interesting opportunity for additional functionality on top of the protocol.
Services such as Counterparty become much simpler to implement with a ready-made field in which could be placed data to be parsed and consensus approved.

This, this is what could make this coin.

Vortex20000

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Activity: 504

Merit: 500

sucker got hacked and screwed --Toad

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 03:02:11 PM

Quote from: almightyruler on February 20, 2015, 10:11:42 AM

Good news is that I staked about 7 hours ago.

I'm glad to hear it.

I put 100 CLAMs into my local wallet a couple of days ago, just to see how long they would take to stake.

They took almost exactly 2 days:

http://khashier.com/address/xQ1F485bxrsPudaWLUNmrTtpJ3UrXLhuzJ

So I was lucky. I'll leave them staking and see how long it takes for the next stake.

Took me several weeks to stake, but that's because my wallet was only online ~12 hours a day and I only had 17 CLAM Wink

dooglus

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Quote from: almightyruler on February 20, 2015, 10:11:42 AM

Good news is that I staked about 7 hours ago.

I'm glad to hear it.

I put 100 CLAMs into my local wallet a couple of days ago, just to see how long they would take to stake.

They took almost exactly 2 days:

http://khashier.com/address/xQ1F485bxrsPudaWLUNmrTtpJ3UrXLhuzJ

So I was lucky. I'll leave them staking and see how long it takes for the next stake.

dooglus

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Merit: 1333

Quote from: SuperClam on February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM

The concept is deceptively simple: political and religious expression/speech is legally protected in many jurisdictions around the world.

There are two facets of the feature that mutually protect each other:
1. The ability to guarantee freedom of speech by hosting it on the block chain;
2. Possibly more importantly, protection of the block chain by having expressions of protected speech embedded in it.

What do you think of the idea of having JD take random lines from its on-site chat as its "CLAMspeech" for the blocks it stakes?

That way you get a much wider range of "expression" in the blockchain - though some of it may not be the kind of stuff you want preserved forever.

I've asked before and don't think I've seen an answer: are the "expression of * freedom: *" lines a work in progress? Are they templates to be filled in with real statements about each religion/whatever? Because it seems to me that currently the "expressions" aren't actually expressing anything - they're just a list of religions and suchlike.

dooglus

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Merit: 1333

Quote from: picolo on February 20, 2015, 04:28:21 AM

So many blocks were created for a few hours??

Lots of blocks were created, but lots of them were at the same "height" as each other. Only one block survived in the main chain at each height. The vast majority of the blocks that were created ended up as orphans, and so earned no staking reward.

It was quite an impressive demonstration on the network's ability to find consensus even with such chaos going on.

SuperClam

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CLAM Developer

Quote from: almightyruler on February 20, 2015, 10:11:42 AM

Quote from: dooglus on February 18, 2015, 01:00:09 PM

Also, I notice that your 98 CLAM output was created on 7th February - just 11 days ago. Maybe you had a similar amount before and were just moving things around, but note that each time you move an output it stops trying to stake for 4 hours.

Brain failure yet again; I have to stop replying to threads at the far end of my awake time. Yes, at that time I believe I gathered various inputs into one, which of course would have reset its weight. My run of luck was bad, but not super bad.
Good news is that I staked about 7 hours ago.

---
I still don't get clamspeech.
"Each time a CLAM is minted or moves on the blockchain, the transaction record is now accompanied by text of your choosing. The CLAMspeech feature allows you to pick from a list of religious and political statements, or to enter a custom expression."
"tx-comment" : "Expression of Religious Freedom: Canaanite Mythology"
I take it my client grabbed this line randomly from clamspeech.txt. Fine if you want to participate, and set your own unique statements, but I don't understand why the client will (by default) bloat the blockchain with the same set of text lines that everyone else has?
If I understand correctly, around 20% of this transaction is taken up by the clamspeech comment: http://khashier.com/tx/4683254175f04dd5a10de1c1a11f1c24c7827d279b3380b51c94cd0319cac406
(Warning: this reply is also being written at the far end of my awake time, so may contain content that defies common sense and/or makes me seem like a babbling idiot. If so, please feel free to knock some sense into me.)

Not a bad question at all

You are correct that CLAMspeech places additional weight on the chain.

The concept is deceptively simple: political and religious expression/speech is legally protected in many jurisdictions around the world.

There are two facets of the feature that mutually protect each other:
1. The ability to guarantee freedom of speech by hosting it on the block chain;
2. Possibly more importantly, protection of the block chain by having expressions of protected speech embedded in it.

We think that as some of the various proposals for regulating crypto-currency are challenged in court; this issue will become much more important in the community and public at large.

In reference to the "Bit License", you can read more about the legal arguments behind such a feature in the public comment submitted by the legal representation of Reddit/EFF.

Of most interest is the section starting at page 11, specifically the sub-section at page 14 and beyond.

As an aside, CLAMspeech also provides an interesting opportunity for additional functionality on top of the protocol.
Services such as Counterparty become much simpler to implement with a ready-made field in which could be placed data to be parsed and consensus approved.

almightyruler

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Quote from: dooglus on February 18, 2015, 01:00:09 PM

Also, I notice that your 98 CLAM output was created on 7th February - just 11 days ago. Maybe you had a similar amount before and were just moving things around, but note that each time you move an output it stops trying to stake for 4 hours.

Brain failure yet again; I have to stop replying to threads at the far end of my awake time. Yes, at that time I believe I gathered various inputs into one, which of course would have reset its weight. My run of luck was bad, but not super bad.

Good news is that I staked about 7 hours ago.

---

I still don't get clamspeech.

"Each time a CLAM is minted or moves on the blockchain, the transaction record is now accompanied by text of your choosing. The CLAMspeech feature allows you to pick from a list of religious and political statements, or to enter a custom expression."

"tx-comment" : "Expression of Religious Freedom: Canaanite Mythology"

I take it my client grabbed this line randomly from clamspeech.txt. Fine if you want to participate, and set your own unique statements, but I don't understand why the client will (by default) bloat the blockchain with the same set of text lines that everyone else has?

If I understand correctly, around 20% of this transaction is taken up by the clamspeech comment: http://khashier.com/tx/4683254175f04dd5a10de1c1a11f1c24c7827d279b3380b51c94cd0319cac406

(Warning: this reply is also being written at the far end of my awake time, so may contain content that defies common sense and/or makes me seem like a babbling idiot. If so, please feel free to knock some sense into me.)

picolo

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Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 01:57:30 AM

Quote from: rocoro on February 19, 2015, 10:00:33 PM

So since just-dice stakes the majority of clams daily, what happens if that staking stops?

How does it affect the network?

The difficulty adjusts downwards so the remaining staking nodes stake 1 block per minute between them.

A few months back (when the 'lottery' block reward was stopped) an error was made when the CLAM client was changed which resulted in it being about a million times easier to stake blocks than before. It took a few hours for the difficulty to adjust fully but it did so without human intervention.

Quote from: rocoro on February 19, 2015, 10:00:33 PM

2nd question is:

Sometimes my staking icon turns red, like it stops staking.. I have mature coins though, why is it doing this?
Note, i'm on v1.4.7 and sometimes I do get stakes.

I've no idea, sorry. What does the red icon's tooltip say if you hover the mouse over it?

So many blocks were created for a few hours??

dooglus

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Quote from: Vortex20000 on February 20, 2015, 02:36:04 AM

Oh, I see.

Here's a post I made about it at the time, with a chart:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9512382

Edit: here it is with time on the x-axis:

So it took about 3 hours for the difficulty to make that huge adjustment. Losing JD's 70% stake would take much less time to adjust for.

Here's the network difficulty since that fork:

Vortex20000

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sucker got hacked and screwed --Toad

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 02:06:59 AM

Quote from: Vortex20000 on February 20, 2015, 02:04:21 AM

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 01:57:30 AM

A few months back (when the 'lottery' block reward was stopped) an error was made when the CLAM client was changed which resulted in it being about a million times easier to stake blocks than before. It took a few hours for the difficulty to adjust fully but it did so without human intervention.

Are you telling me... if I had been there... then... I co-could have gotten...

Undecided

Every 16 seconds lots of peers staked blocks. All but one were orphaned. This kept up for a while as difficulty adjusted. Massive amounts of forking/orphaning, but it all worked itself out just fine.

Oh, I see.

dooglus

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Merit: 1333

Quote from: Vortex20000 on February 20, 2015, 02:04:21 AM

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 01:57:30 AM

A few months back (when the 'lottery' block reward was stopped) an error was made when the CLAM client was changed which resulted in it being about a million times easier to stake blocks than before. It took a few hours for the difficulty to adjust fully but it did so without human intervention.

Are you telling me... if I had been there... then... I co-could have gotten...

Undecided

Every 16 seconds lots of peers staked blocks. All but one were orphaned. This kept up for a while as difficulty adjusted. Massive amounts of forking/orphaning, but it all worked itself out just fine.

Vortex20000

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

sucker got hacked and screwed --Toad

Quote from: dooglus on February 20, 2015, 01:57:30 AM

A few months back (when the 'lottery' block reward was stopped) an error was made when the CLAM client was changed which resulted in it being about a million times easier to stake blocks than before. It took a few hours for the difficulty to adjust fully but it did so without human intervention.

Are you telling me... if I had been there... then... I co-could have gotten...

Undecided

dooglus

legendary

Activity: 2940

Merit: 1333

Quote from: rocoro on February 19, 2015, 10:00:33 PM

So since just-dice stakes the majority of clams daily, what happens if that staking stops?

How does it affect the network?

The difficulty adjusts downwards so the remaining staking nodes stake 1 block per minute between them.

A few months back (when the 'lottery' block reward was stopped) an error was made when the CLAM client was changed which resulted in it being about a million times easier to stake blocks than before. It took a few hours for the difficulty to adjust fully but it did so without human intervention.

Quote from: rocoro on February 19, 2015, 10:00:33 PM

2nd question is:

Sometimes my staking icon turns red, like it stops staking.. I have mature coins though, why is it doing this?
Note, i'm on v1.4.7 and sometimes I do get stakes.

I've no idea, sorry. What does the red icon's tooltip say if you hover the mouse over it?

Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 375. (Read 1151252 times)