Topic: [ANN][CRW] CROWN (SHA256) | Platform | Governance | Systemnodes | Masternodes | - page 179. (Read 316957 times)

Wallet looks amazong, very regal 

Hi all, I was asked to post a short vid of where I'm at with the Crown wallet redesign. I'm not the designer here, just the QT guy, but I really liked the brief I was given and the help I've had from the team members has been outstanding.

Some notes from my point of view  -  vid title suggests to me where I'm at in meeting said spec. There's a whole lot of detail work still to be done but it's being posted here as an opportunity for all of you to give feedback before the design implementation is finalised.

I have an extensive personal to-do list but please speak up, your opinion can and will help CRW. For those curious, the wallet is launched with "./dash-qt" (and it's compiled from a CRW-team owned bitcoin repo) as Crown is updating to the latest Bitcoin and Dash code - work remains to be done all round but we're getting there and the Crown team is a huge step up from anyone I've ever worked with in crypto before.

Here you go:

https://vimeo.com/190149405]


Let us know what you think!  

I am looking forward to the iOS as an Apple user 

Great job mate! Send me your CRW address and I will send you a bounty asap

Thronemonitor is now on the play store. iOS will follow not to far away.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.crowncoin.thrones

Any problems, please let me know and I will do my best to get them sorted asap 

Nice to have new members of the community helping with the implementation -- its one of the key things that needs to happen.

I don't think the worst case scenario going to be what happens - but I think it's a useful analytical tool to be able to stare at the worst that can happen in a situation and see how it makes you feel -- so that you can keep from getting carried away by the feeling as the roller-coaster inevitably goes on it's ride (imagine Steve Martin in Parenthood hearing the ratcheting of the roller coaster in his head).  Or if you prefer see, Rudyard Kipling's "If..."

The value of CRW at this point isn't in the coin as much as it is in the community that is gathering... and the most likely "downside scenario" is forks or division in the core team and the community.  So analytically this is probably what one would want to watch for... but the goal is for their to be an active and constructive debate about the issues as the project comes together, so you should see genuine disagreements emerge and collide and hopefully those collisions will result in new and better ideas... either before or after a trip to the pub...

But I also just felt like there was enough "price talk" that it would be useful to unpack a simple case for how to think about the potential value to an "independent trustless distributed and decentralized fault-tolerant platform for computing, communication and commerce"... 

I think both the issues around pre-mining or self-distribution schemes, major corporate sponsorship of foundations or investment through VC's, and also just ownership concentration are ones which will be addressed over time. 

My impression of the folks involved in this project is that everyone would rather have a small piece of something huge than a huge piece of something small, and I have seen members of the team -- particularly CCK put this into action and it is part of what made me hang around and start messaging these guys... and then I also realized that at least a few of them are wicked smart too.

It promises to be an interesting ride.

Its common knowledge that Evan premined darkcoin. I never really piled onto dash because of this fact. CRW offers a much more equal (and in some areas better than) platform for now that I believe will continue to consume larger portions of the market. I don't think CRW will end up worthless any less than btc would end up worthless (pesetacoin is still around barely but worth "something" and honestly, I cannot figure out why that coin still has a market) ... I don't think crowncoin however, will fall like pesetacoin did, since the development is continuing and the announcements keep flowing.

This is a very active community and I am really happy to have "implemented" myself into it lol

Just to continue the thought on price and value, and extend it to the idea of investment/speculation -- because the value of CRW right now is really pure spec.  There is no real economic use of it at this point... not that this is that different from many others...

But if we look at CRW as something composed of 42 MM units at the end of the distribution period, and each unit trades for something in the neighborhood of $0.02 USD -- you have a platform which is running elements of a system which has been tested and developed for almost a decade (bitcoin core) and which has the potential to add improvements which others have already tested and proven (near instant transactions, distributed governance, notary and asset trading or simply backend transaction handling at low cost), and also has a vision for where to go from there to trying new things -- implemented open source so that these innovations will benefit CRW but also so that they will be available to the eco-system to create other innovative combinations and structures...

And the team is small, but composed of a number of bright young guys some of whom don't seem to sleep much which means they get a lot done, but are occasionally delusional... balanced by a few older guys who are cynical and skeptical but still remember being optimistic once.

So you have an option on this project delivering real economic value.  And if does create real economic value for its users and its community, then it's probably worth -- let's just pick a number out of the sky... no that's BS... let's think analytically -- if it is functionally a cloud system then one could compare it to cloud SaaS systems... since those companies are worth billions and in some cases arguably actually don't add economic value because they functionally capture and trap their customers -- so that their economic value in the market is actually a direct function of the cost to their customers to exit their platforms (switching costs)... but I'm getting sidetracked.

Let's just say if CRW were able to offer 1 or 2 real solutions to global market segments of the real economy in either transaction processing or data services or other possibilities -- it could be worth $100 MM (this feels like when Dr. Evil underbid the ransom for the Earth after being unfrozen... but best to understate)...  so if CRW or any other alt-coin is able to capture some use case in the real economy of this size, then it's value should move to approximate the aggregate value of the use divided by the number of units times some probability of continued success (the actual math isn't this simple -- but I'm trying to make an argument and this is a decent napkin math way to think about it)...

So if a coin with CRW's profile were to be in the position that it's use was worth $100 MM in some fashion and the odds of it's continued success are 50%, then $50MM/$42 MM is about $1 per coin, which is about 50x where it is now.   So modest success of an alt-coin project like CRW (and like many others as well -- CRW is not unique in it's pursuit of a slice of the real economy) could achieve a 50x return... and in the worst case and honestly most probable scenario -- CRW ends up worthless... but in that case you only lose 1x.

Generically looking at alt-coins then this is the simple case for the assymetric return potential (in the hypothetical case the upside in a modest success scenario is 50x the downside in a worst case scenario) -- that is the return potential for all the alt-coin the projects which are able to be of real use to a community in the real economy.

But the question will be how the many projects which are raising large amounts of capital from VC or have more and more corporate funding will be managed and whom they will view as their community.   Which walks the discussion back to my first post today earlier in the thread on thrones and distributed governance and community dialog in prioritizing development goals.  Because the key issue which we are seeing play out is that once a thing succeeds, it can change - or it can get locked in by corporate interests whose legal responsibility and fiduciary responsibilities may be contrary to community interests (this is a whole larger point - and one reason that one can logically argue that tradition for profit corporations are legally required to behave as sociopaths except where required by law not to).  But that's another divergence.

The point was that from the mud grows the lotus.  The community is the mud -- and it's not pretty, but it is what we all grow out of...  a part of the idea behind Crown is that their is a duality -- a looking back while looking forward.  And like all dualities it can be fun to play with and think about in different ways... from the mud grows the lotus...

The values of the community, the mud, which fertilized this project are part of not just it's past but where it is going.  The mud won't wash off.  Those values include a fundamental belief in the importance of a "independent trustless distributed decentralized fault tolerant contracting commerce and communications platforms" (I feel like the unfrozen caveman lawyer saying that) -- or of having at least one if it can be developed and having the code for that be open sourced so then there would be other.  So the clone could grow up to be cloned.  And that's the fun with dualities -- often when you game out the future you end up seeing something that happened in the past and when you study the past you see patterns that may repeat in the future.

And the fertilizer bit reminds me of Peter Sellers in the movie Being There -- as Chauncey Gardener, or Chance the Gardener -- who steps out into the world after the old man died...  chance does tend the garden in its way, and is the key to being able to implement network security through the structure of the network itself rather than anything else -- or I think that's one way of saying it...  and money is like manure, it doesn't do any good unless you spread it around.

The issue of how money gets spread around is one of the big ones.  And for what it's worth -- mud is better than manure.


 

Just a quick note on price, price quotes, value etc...

1. Price is a weird thing because it is everything (the only thing that matters is what price you bought at and then what price you sold at, or the current quote).
2. Price is a weird thing because it is nothing -- a price quote is just that, a quote -- it doesn't become real to anyone unless they transact at that price...

There is some information in looking at what happens to price when their is large amounts of volume... but it all just depends.

Ultimately, the value of anything, IMHO, is determined by its usefulness.  All economic value is instrumental value, or value in use.

So absent a market to look at, if one has to look at paying a price for something -- you are willing to pay an amount proportionate to an items value to you to do something.

So to get back to the point, any price movement could only be ascribed to the anticipation of the what the development team plans to release -- the code has been updated and is being tested, but it hasn't been released yet... so there could be a point to the observation that the market price may "anticipate" changes which are probable.  By anticipating changes, market prices offer implied probabilities of success in efficient markets -- which is what gets all kinds of people excited.

But this idea misses another important fact -- life is messy and markets just reflect life.  Prices move when at a given moment more people want to sell than want to buy or vice versa.  The price moves to clear the market.  We do not get to ask each of the buyers or sellers why they are buying or selling so we never really get to know what it means -- but we just know that in that moment, for whatever reason it was more useful for someone to buy at a given price and for another person to sell at that same price.

This is the most fascinating part of markets that too few people seem to really consider.  There is always the same number of units bought and sold on a market each day.  So each day and in each transaction you have buyers and sellers meeting up and AGREEING TO TRANSACT BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE ABOUT VALUE -- for the seller for some reason what is being sold is worth less than the price and for the buyer it is worth more... so markets are fundamentally a place for constructive disagreement, where people come together to sort out their disagreements, ideally in a mutually profitable way.

In the case of CRW, there is probably an interesting trade flow between merge miners who come to the market to sell and convert to BTC, and then bots which are always on CCEX to catch that flow and then the folks like me who have been just buying to set up thrones which will enable the next phase of network development.  In the shadows somewhere are probably some legacy holders who have in all likelihood cashed in a portion of their holdings for some beer money but probably still have a lot.  All imminently analyzable on the blockchain if anyone has the time and inclination -- I seem to remember the Hive posting some of their analysis in the past.

The price is completely subject to market forces, always have always will be

I observed that the price of crowncoin has not gone up much this week, could it be because of all the restructuring being done?

Yeah... Chaositec is solid.

Documentation will also be addressed, but there really isn't a point to doing it before releasing the next round of updates which should brings the Crown core up to date with Dash & Bitcoin, which it had fallen behind.  Once these pieces are done, and the new wallet and throne manager are released as part of that -- then the process will get more interesting.  

Within the Thrones you will see that there are the "voting" capabilities of Dash.  So one point of discussion will be how to evolve governance of the project and what role the thrones should play.

Within the platform as a whole there will need to be prioritization of different projects and also there will be opportunities for people to step forward and do things like implementing the Open Asset Protocol or other Colored Coin protocols on Crown, where there might be value to marrying something like instant and a colored coin representing or backed by another asset.  In this way - CRW could be used as a backend payment service by some entrepreneur who had a money changing license, or other relevant licenses in the relevant jurisdiction...

The attraction at this point of being able to set up a business like this on CRW should be the low entry cost -- the risk for CRW to be able to build an eco-system around it is that the project is still more mud than lotus at this point... but from the mud comes the lotus... or that's what some of these guys are working on.

Clear communication and documentation of features as well as building transparent distributed governance structures for this "decentralized trustless software platform" will be important things for the Crown team to help build with the community.

it is true that i have servers running on OVH, but i have my servers spread out in canada and europe, so not all would be hit with any given problem those centers would have, but, it needs to be better, and im still working on the solution for getting migration working across the pond (currently not doable because of ip relations problem, but with the upgrade of our wallet code, i will be able to restart any throne, on any ip if it should go down (well in theory anyway) which is one of the areas i will be looking into, and also as the service becomes more popular, i will expand servers out to other datacenters as well..

but yes, current can be seen as a weak point since i am only on 3 different datacenters across the world.

Yeah I had multiple issues and head scratching moments when it came to the vps configuration (not owners fault, I'll take that blame on myself .. aka learning curve). CHAOSiTEC was a major help earlier and answered the questions that I had in a really quick manner (suprising since he was on the road!).

Even after that, I ran into VIN issues, which I finally nailed down as well.. Couldn't count earlier apparently and I've only got 6 thrones up instead of 7 that I thought I had the coins for

VOUT in the throne.conf file refers to the value out ("vOut") index of the transaction which corresponds to the index position of where the 10,000 CRW collateral payment is in the transaction block.  This number will almost always either be 1 or 0, and you just have to look at how the block gets put together to find out.

The txID and vOut then allow the Crown core to confirm that the collateral for a given throne remains unspent.  The vOut also will be used in the next generation of the throne manager to automatically lock the collateral transactions for thrones within a wallet -- basically just string concatenating lockunspent (clip from the help entry from the command line below):   

lockunspent unlock [{"txid":"txid","vout":n},...]

Updates list of temporarily unspendable outputs.
Temporarily lock (unlock=false) or unlock (unlock=true) specified transaction outputs.
A locked transaction output will not be chosen by automatic coin selection, when spending crowncoins.
Locks are stored in memory only. Nodes start with zero locked outputs, and the locked output list
is always cleared (by virtue of process exit) when a node stops or fails.


... interestingly the vOut is called the VIN (value in) in the clone of the Dash masternode (and in the Dash masternode itself) for reasons which probably involve shifting abstractions and deadlines.  The code works, but the label is wrong if anyone out there is digging around in the code in GitHub.  This confused me at first.

I think stonehedge meant 3,070,000 CRW.... not 300,000....

As one looks at the network of thrones -- due to the low cost and initial relationship with OVH & Chaositec, Crown has geographic and service provider concentration in the existing thrones.  
This can be seen in the CryptoID BlockExplorer: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/crw/masternodes.dws

The throne functionality is built on the Dash masternode, and includes features like darksend and instant, which are part of Dash.  Conceptually, a key part of what is being worked on in "crown revolution" is just to boil the core down to the best features of Dash and Bitcoin - without the problems of delays and blocksize and mining waste.  One part of what needs to be determined and discussed in this forum will be the evolution of the payout structure and the layering of security & confirmation between different consensus protocols (mining/POW, staking/POS, and what Stonehedge has called the 3rd way -- but which I'm sure people can figure out if they try, it's not completely new as nothing is really completely new).  

A key part of what different alt-coins are doing and what Crown is also trying, is to test different combinations of existing technologies/code to create something new. If it works, it's open source and others can borrow from us as well...  Crown's only advantage will be to keep innovating and building...

But getting back to thrones -- a useful area of discussion for folks to post on might be their experience on different with setting up thrones on different cloud platforms...  I created a CRW throne image on AWS and discussed that briefly in a previous post.  While AWS is easy and geographically diverse, it's not cheap...  

I keep playing with different platforms and set up a few thrones on LINODE yesterday... www.linode.com

I used Ubuntu 16.04 LTS and a 15 MB drive and a 512 MB swap drive on Linode's smallest instance which is about $10 per month... what's nice about Linode is that they have the interface set up so it is easy to take an image of an initial throne and then clone that to new instances -- update the crowncoin.conf file and then restart crowncoind and voila, new throne in less than 10 minutes.

The curveball with linode was that I had to add a line to my throne install script because the "apt" package wasn't fully pre-installed.... so before running the add-apt-repository command to pull ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin, I had to add "sudo apt install software-properties-common"... for it to install the features to be able to recognize the repository command.

I'm a newbie and still learning this stuff...

More broadly -- if anyone else has any other platforms to recommend and any quirks which they notice to different Linux installs for the thrones on different cloud providers, feel free to chime in....

miningrigrentals and nicehash

More to the point, people have willingly staked 300,000 Crown to help us deliver Crown Revolution on a stable network.

How does one gather 10PH? It must be spread out, not in the corner of a room? 

307 Thrones online today, people setting them up every day now, now means 30pct of coin supply is LOCKED