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Topic: [ANN][CRW] CROWN (SHA256) | Platform | Governance | Systemnodes | Masternodes | - page 182. (Read 317079 times)

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
The Hive notices that you, Mr. Stone, do not seem to think that the POW protocol is a sustainable one and thus needs an update. There seem to be plausible arguments against POW. However, we have yet to see you state any detailed arguments against POS. We know one of them -- susceptibility to 51% attacks. What are some other issues that you see with POS?

Separately, won't coins that are POW just be able to switch their consensus protocol if it becomes a problem?

~ The Hive ~

I'm not ignoring your question.  I'm just taking a while to think about it.

Thanks for keeping us informed. We figured you might be developing a response to it.

~ The Hive ~

Sorry for the long delay.  I had an unexpected piece of real world work to deliver.  One needs to pay the bills.

Proof of stake in its various flavours has the following problems.

Nothing at Stake Problem (fixed with delegated PoS)

If a PoS chain forks, there is nothing stopping a user staking his/her coins on both chains.

Initial Distribution Problem (solved with hybrid PoW/PoS)


Early purchasers of a coin will always be at an advantage over later investors as their coin balance directly contributes to the growth of their wealth. This advantage is confered to the early investor for as long as they own their stake.  Initial coin distribution by PoW somewhat nullifies this.

Long Range Attack (theoretical)


In theory, somebody with enough computational power could build an alternative blockchain starting from the very first block. Some implementations of PoS solve this by defining the maximum allowed depth of a branching point to a certain number of blocks in the past.  NXT sets the value at 720 blocks/12 hours for example.

Bribe Attack

In this attack, an attacker attempts to double-spend his funds in the following way:

1. Buy some goods or services
2. Wait until the payment transaction is considered confirmed by the merchant
3. Announce a reward for building on top of a truncated blockchain that does not include the payment transaction. For example, if merchant waited for six confirmations, the attacker will start with the blockchain without the six latest blocks. The attacker may offer a larger reward for users that mint only on top of the attacker’s blockchain (without this, the attacker’s blockchain would never catch up to the correct one).
4. The attacker may continue paying bribes even when the lengths of their blockchain and the correct blockchain become equal in order to gain support of most stakeholders.

(Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work Whitepaper - Bitfury - http://bitfury.com/content/5-white-papers-research/pos-vs-pow-1.0.2.pdf)

Coin Age Accumulation Attack

Only relevant to some PoS implementations.  Peercoin famously suffered from this issue but now solved.

In some PoS implementations, coin age is used as the staking metric rather than wallet wealth. If there is no maximum coin age defined in the protocol then it is possible for enought time to lapse for the earliest investors to have enough accumulated coin age to overtake the rest of the network and receive 100% of staking reward.

Some of the above may not be feasible due to required investment size but early investors could be at a significant advantage if intentions are nefarious.

Delegated proof of stake has efectively solved shorter range attacks and the nothing at stake problem but there is no consistency in how PoS coins address these problems. 

There are several active projects that use the earliest implementation of PoS that doesn't address any issues and several PoS projects that have implemented a variety of different fixes to problems with no consistency.  This means that some of these solutions have not been tested on a significant scale to ensure that they stand up to scrutiny.

Due the large variety of issues that need to be solved (admittedly some are theoretical) I don't consider PoS to be cryptographically sound until a uniform approach to solving these issues has been implemented.

In short, Stonehedge thinks "close but no cigar".

Good summary of PoS, but I think it's important to distinguish between the distribution mechanism and the security mechanism.

PoS and PoWaste attempt to be both, and both fail spectacularly at security.

Pick whatever distribution method suits your goals, but let the overlay network handle the security. I've done the math publicly many times, it boils down to deterministic subsetting of nodes being many orders of magnitude more secure... and the code's already there and working, just currently gimped.
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0

I maybe asking too much here but I have to ask...
When a throne is swept of its balance can you make the app recognise the balance has been cleared?

Edit: Maybe have the option of both?

Is that when you clear a throne's balance back down to the original 10k? Would you want it to just highlight the throne in the mini table or push a notification?

No notification needed, just a correction to current balance.

If i have 10100crw and I send 50crw, I'd like the app to correct to the proper balance of 10050crw  Smiley

If i regularly sweep my thrones, the app shows total of all coin earned instead of what i made since i last swept my thrones.

Im being a pain  Cheesy

Ahh, I see. The balance isn't being updated. Yep, well spotted. I'll fix that  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000

I maybe asking too much here but I have to ask...
When a throne is swept of its balance can you make the app recognise the balance has been cleared?

Edit: Maybe have the option of both?

Is that when you clear a throne's balance back down to the original 10k? Would you want it to just highlight the throne in the mini table or push a notification?

No notification needed, just a correction to current balance.

If i have 10100crw and I send 50crw, I'd like the app to correct to the proper balance of 10050crw  Smiley

If i regularly sweep my thrones, the app shows total of all coin earned instead of what i made since i last swept my thrones.

Im being a pain  Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0

I maybe asking too much here but I have to ask...
When a throne is swept of its balance can you make the app recognise the balance has been cleared?

Edit: Maybe have the option of both?

Is that when you clear a throne's balance back down to the original 10k? Would you want it to just highlight the throne in the mini table or push a notification?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000

Looking really good.

I added and removed a number of thrones and seems to be working seamlessly.

Would be nice to use tabs so that you could get a nicer view of the stats...



Yeh, it seems to be running pretty sweet, but it's not very easy on the eye  Grin. The next major update version will have a menu with everything in it's own section and just a very brief overview on the home page.

I maybe asking too much here but I have to ask...
When a throne is swept of its balance can you make the app recognise the balance has been cleared?

Edit: Maybe have the option of both?
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0

Looking really good.

I added and removed a number of thrones and seems to be working seamlessly.

Would be nice to use tabs so that you could get a nicer view of the stats...

https://s14.postimg.org/lefpc9w0d/Screenshot_20161024_165801.png

Yeh, it seems to be running pretty sweet, but it's not very easy on the eye  Grin. The next major update version will have a menu with everything in it's own section and just a very brief overview on the home page.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1002
Decentralize Everything
First release of the Throne Monitor app can be downloaded from here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dw09am9m60jjsc7/CRWThroneMonitor.apk?dl=0

Would appreciate any feedback or suggestions before getting a final release for app store sorted.

Any problems, just post here. I will be keeping an eye on the thread

Looking really good.

I added and removed a number of thrones and seems to be working seamlessly.

Would be nice to use tabs so that you could get a nicer view of the stats...

newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
First release of the Throne Monitor app can be downloaded from here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dw09am9m60jjsc7/CRWThroneMonitor.apk?dl=0

Would appreciate any feedback or suggestions before getting a final release for app store sorted.

Any problems, just post here. I will be keeping an eye on the thread
member
Activity: 125
Merit: 10

Sorry for the long delay.  I had an unexpected piece of real world work to deliver.  One needs to pay the bills.

...

In short, Stonehedge thinks "close but no cigar".

We see with lucidity now and again thank you for being so steadfast in regards to corresponding with the community.

Strength comes with confidence.

Until we are consumed with curiosity,

~ The Hive ~
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 501
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1002
Decentralize Everything
The Hive notices that you, Mr. Stone, do not seem to think that the POW protocol is a sustainable one and thus needs an update. There seem to be plausible arguments against POW. However, we have yet to see you state any detailed arguments against POS. We know one of them -- susceptibility to 51% attacks. What are some other issues that you see with POS?

Separately, won't coins that are POW just be able to switch their consensus protocol if it becomes a problem?

~ The Hive ~

I'm not ignoring your question.  I'm just taking a while to think about it.

Thanks for keeping us informed. We figured you might be developing a response to it.

~ The Hive ~

Sorry for the long delay.  I had an unexpected piece of real world work to deliver.  One needs to pay the bills.

Proof of stake in its various flavours has the following problems.

Nothing at Stake Problem (fixed with delegated PoS)

If a PoS chain forks, there is nothing stopping a user staking his/her coins on both chains.

Initial Distribution Problem (solved with hybrid PoW/PoS)


Early purchasers of a coin will always be at an advantage over later investors as their coin balance directly contributes to the growth of their wealth. This advantage is confered to the early investor for as long as they own their stake.  Initial coin distribution by PoW somewhat nullifies this.

Long Range Attack (theoretical)


In theory, somebody with enough computational power could build an alternative blockchain starting from the very first block. Some implementations of PoS solve this by defining the maximum allowed depth of a branching point to a certain number of blocks in the past.  NXT sets the value at 720 blocks/12 hours for example.

Bribe Attack

In this attack, an attacker attempts to double-spend his funds in the following way:

1. Buy some goods or services
2. Wait until the payment transaction is considered confirmed by the merchant
3. Announce a reward for building on top of a truncated blockchain that does not include the payment transaction. For example, if merchant waited for six confirmations, the attacker will start with the blockchain without the six latest blocks. The attacker may offer a larger reward for users that mint only on top of the attacker’s blockchain (without this, the attacker’s blockchain would never catch up to the correct one).
4. The attacker may continue paying bribes even when the lengths of their blockchain and the correct blockchain become equal in order to gain support of most stakeholders.

(Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work Whitepaper - Bitfury - http://bitfury.com/content/5-white-papers-research/pos-vs-pow-1.0.2.pdf)

Coin Age Accumulation Attack

Only relevant to some PoS implementations.  Peercoin famously suffered from this issue but now solved.

In some PoS implementations, coin age is used as the staking metric rather than wallet wealth. If there is no maximum coin age defined in the protocol then it is possible for enought time to lapse for the earliest investors to have enough accumulated coin age to overtake the rest of the network and receive 100% of staking reward.

Some of the above may not be feasible due to required investment size but early investors could be at a significant advantage if intentions are nefarious.

Delegated proof of stake has efectively solved shorter range attacks and the nothing at stake problem but there is no consistency in how PoS coins address these problems. 

There are several active projects that use the earliest implementation of PoS that doesn't address any issues and several PoS projects that have implemented a variety of different fixes to problems with no consistency.  This means that some of these solutions have not been tested on a significant scale to ensure that they stand up to scrutiny.

Due the large variety of issues that need to be solved (admittedly some are theoretical) I don't consider PoS to be cryptographically sound until a uniform approach to solving these issues has been implemented.

In short, Stonehedge thinks "close but no cigar".
hero member
Activity: 525
Merit: 510
I'd like to point a special thanks to lucd88 for the info leading me into CRW.

I'm looking forward to the growth of this community, we already got  alot of great names here, some of which i know from other communities.

Kudos to the dev (s) and everyone working hard to make this project a success

Tommy

Hey buddy, you're very welcome. Good to see you post here, great having you mate! Smiley

Welcome to the club! Cheesy

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
Portuguese translation at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;board=181.0

All the best to you project!

Regards, Shooter

Your link took me to outer space, i think you meant this one  Tongue

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/anncrw-crowncoin-sha256-masternodes-thrones-dgw-mergedmining-etc-1659000

I'll send the bounty asap, thanks!

I need your CRW address btw Tongue
hero member
Activity: 808
Merit: 500


Rebranding works from CROWNCOIN to CROWN proceeding fast!

Hope to have the new web including brand new texts running on crown.tech ready mid next week.

hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 501
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Portuguese translation at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;board=181.0

All the best to you project!

Regards, Shooter
hero member
Activity: 808
Merit: 500
I'd like to point a special thanks to lucd88 for the info leading me into CRW.

I'm looking forward to the growth of this community, we already got  alot of great names here, some of which i know from other communities.

Kudos to the dev (s) and everyone working hard to make this project a success

Tommy



Thanks for your supportive message - its really great to see the Crown community growing and the idea being spread around!
hero member
Activity: 1232
Merit: 501
I'd like to point a special thanks to lucd88 for the info leading me into CRW.

I'm looking forward to the growth of this community, we already got  alot of great names here, some of which i know from other communities.

Kudos to the dev (s) and everyone working hard to make this project a success

Tommy
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000


Guys lets keep this space clean of any attacks, we need to move forward and discussion has to be constructive not destructive.  Wink
Yeah we have to only discuss the progress of the coin and do not have to care for the fuds. This coin is much stronger as it is running with success from a longer period and will remain forever.

yeah I sa on exchanges it has a very stronger history and is a stronger coin. the newbies are not able to break it. and we can see that the developers are sincere with their project and they are trying hard to give more success to the coin.
yes i a agree with you that the success of this coin is really based on the hard work of the developer, they are really working hard for the success of this project and specially the Signature Campaign is also too much effective in introducing the coin between the people.

The signature campaign has had 0 effect on the price.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100


Guys lets keep this space clean of any attacks, we need to move forward and discussion has to be constructive not destructive.  Wink
Yeah we have to only discuss the progress of the coin and do not have to care for the fuds. This coin is much stronger as it is running with success from a longer period and will remain forever.

yeah I sa on exchanges it has a very stronger history and is a stronger coin. the newbies are not able to break it. and we can see that the developers are sincere with their project and they are trying hard to give more success to the coin.
yes i a agree with you that the success of this coin is really based on the hard work of the developer, they are really working hard for the success of this project and specially the Signature Campaign is also too much effective in introducing the coin between the people.
full member
Activity: 227
Merit: 125


The core team has acquired two key domains for further development of the Crown project:

1. crown.tech - our new website domain to be set up in course of next week
2. crown.cash - key domain to be used in the future as project develops in several directions

All these domains together with all the current crowncoin domains - crowncoin.com, .org, .net etc will be transferred from my possesion to a non profit organization to be set up in London very soon by the core team

We can make good use of those amazing urls.

Just to remind the thread whats still to come, here's
a list of things to look forword to...

New website, with new urls. (In progress)
New wallet look. (In progress)
OP graphics and roadmap (In progress)
Throne monitoring APP (Testing)
Major core updates to both Bitcoin and Dash (In progress)

Once all of this work is completed we can really start to focus on the technical aspect of our plans, our plan is to evolutionise the blockchain forever.

thank you for this update defunctec!
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