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Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 1480. (Read 9723803 times)

sr. member
Activity: 317
Merit: 1012
This is the question people have been asking since the first experiments with democracy in Athens. Nobody has ever solved the problem, so I doubt we're going to either. The best anyone can come up with is: a) civic responsibility, b) sometimes your vote really does matter.

Exactly. People vote when it matters to them which is why it's reasonable that the ones who ARE voting deserve to be heard over those that aren't IMO.

In the Scottish referendum on independence, people came out of the woodwork from all over the place to vote - people who had never even registered to vote before. There was such strength of feeling on both sides that nearly the entire population voted. On the other hand, in European elections - which actually do matter regarding certain areas of policy - you're lucky if 30% turnout.

The thing about Dash's voting system is that - unlike democracy - you can buy yourself votes.

Earlier today, emitkirby made this remark:

Otoh, I respect your right to make investments however the size of your investment in DASH gives you a lot of power. This is something I believe is holding potential investors back.

Although I think this is a reasonable view with regard to democracy, I don't really think it's reasonable with regard to governance of a commercial asset. The whole point of commercially traded assets is that you weild more influence over their governance the more you acquire. So the fact that Dash is doing justice to this principle should attract investors, not inhibit them. This principle applies universally in commerce. The fact that Steve Jobs held a huge number of shares in Pixar didn't inhibit people from investing in Pixar. Dash is a private currency - not a public one created by a central bank and backed by public debt.

Clarity is required. I don't see any other way that allowing large holders to wield more influence than small ones. In fact I think it's essential - it just gives them more responsibility thats all because the merits of their decision making (or in Dash's case, the decentralised will of the holders) will determine the propensity for others to invest.

If the governance process (however many participate) makes crap decisions then the asset will go down the tubes. If it is seen to take sensible, well thought out and generally 'safe' decisions then  the asset will grow and attract more users.

In conclusion I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference whether 1 person votes or 1000. It's not the number of votes but the quality of the decision making that's important. If only 20 people care passionately whether Dashwhale gets a blockchain sponsorship and only those 20 people vote, then thats better than 200 people voting where the other 180 don't have a particular view IMO.

However, the fact that many people can "jam their foot in the door" in a crisis over a critical issue if so required is a hugely powerful backstop against corruption.

I like Dash's governance model. Everytime I try to "think my way out of it" I keep coming back to the way it is - an uneasy but ultimately very powerful and well secured blend of capital & popular democracy. It also puts a lot of trust in the holders to make good decisions so it's an open book which makes it "alive" and appealing.


A representative system could be worth considering, imho it'd be an ideal thing to test out the ID and trust systems on. There's likely to be a lot of proposals covering areas that few really give a damn about but someone they trust might and would let them decide on their behalf if given the option.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 502
Storj is having a 2hr hangout session in 45 minutes to discuss their distributed drive storage.  Here is the link for anyone interested.  Might be helpful to get some info for implementing blockchain storage for Dash.

Need an HTML5 browser - chrome works.

http://storj.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=edba9fc4ce8b9095a31859cba&id=2ac957092e&e=6f3863fef1
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188

This is the question people have been asking since the first experiments with democracy in Athens. Nobody has ever solved the problem, so I doubt we're going to either. The best anyone can come up with is: a) civic responsibility, b) sometimes your vote really does matter.

Exactly. People vote when it matters to them which is why it's reasonable that the ones who ARE voting deserve to be heard over those that aren't IMO.

In the Scottish referendum on independence, people came out of the woodwork from all over the place to vote - people who had never even registered to vote before. There was such strength of feeling on both sides that nearly the entire population voted. On the other hand, in European elections - which actually do matter regarding certain areas of policy - you're lucky if 30% turnout.

The thing about Dash's voting system is that - unlike democracy - you can buy yourself votes.

Earlier today, emitkirby made this remark:

Otoh, I respect your right to make investments however the size of your investment in DASH gives you a lot of power. This is something I believe is holding potential investors back.

Although I think this is a reasonable view with regard to democracy, I don't really think it's reasonable with regard to governance of a capital asset. The whole point of commercially traded assets is that you weild more influence over their governance the more you acquire. So the fact that Dash is doing justice to this principle should attract investors, not inhibit them. This principle applies universally in commerce. The fact that Steve Jobs held a huge number of shares in Pixar didn't inhibit people from investing in Pixar. Dash is a private currency - not a public one created by a central bank and backed by public debt.

Clarity is required. I don't see any other way that allowing large holders to wield more influence than small ones. In fact I think it's essential - it just gives them more responsibility thats all because the merits of their decision making (or in Dash's case, the decentralised will of the holders) will determine the propensity for others to invest.

If the governance process (however many participate) makes crap decisions then the asset will go down the tubes. If it is seen to take sensible, well thought out and generally 'safe' decisions then  the asset will grow and attract more users.

In conclusion I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference whether 1 person votes or 1000. It's not the number of votes but the quality of the decision making that's important. If only 20 people care passionately whether Dashwhale gets a blockchain sponsorship and only those 20 people vote, then thats better than 200 people voting where the other 180 don't have a particular view IMO.

However, the fact that many people can "jam their foot in the door" in a crisis over a critical issue if so required is a hugely powerful backstop against corruption.

I like Dash's governance model. Everytime I try to "think my way out of it" I keep coming back to the way it is - an uneasy but ultimately very powerful and well secured blend of capital & popular democracy. It also puts a lot of trust in the holders to make good decisions so it's an open book which makes it "alive" and appealing.
sr. member
Activity: 317
Merit: 1012
The other option's controversy and that makes it a PR problem Grin
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
How can you motivate anyone who just owns 1 or even 10 masternodes to participate, in the current setup/configuration? It's just a formality without any significance whatsoever.

This is the question people have been asking since the first experiments with democracy in Athens. Nobody has ever solved the problem, so I doubt we're going to either. The best anyone can come up with is: a) civic responsibility, b) sometimes your vote really does matter.

How quickly we forget:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000
sr. member
Activity: 317
Merit: 1012

I never understood the point of private, in-house, corporate blockchains.

If it's proprietary why bother with a blockchain at all ? If you have to come up with your own hashing power isn't it just a very expensive VPN ? Why not just use regular accounts and databases instead ?

Perplexed.  Huh



Maybe one reason for it, I'd guess is its a new buzzword for database providers to latch onto. Corporations are just as bad as consumers for buying shiny gizmo's they don't really need but it could turn into a pissing contest over performance and requirements, might even spawn new platforms.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049

I never understood the point of private, in-house, corporate blockchains.

If it's proprietary why bother with a blockchain at all ? If you have to come up with your own hashing power isn't it just a very expensive VPN ? Why not just use regular accounts and databases instead ?

Perplexed.  Huh



It's just bullshit really for the media "ohhh bitcoin is not very good, but hey, it may have something useful to it". Kind of discrediting it with a twist. Of course banks have zero use for a blockchain as their centralized systems work better for their intended purposes.

The blockchain (and bitcoin) is needed by the people as a DEcentralized solution, not by those that sit atop the hierarchical control structure of the centralized system.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
I never understood the point of private, in-house, corporate blockchains.

If it's proprietary why bother with a blockchain at all ? If you have to come up with your own hashing power isn't it just a very expensive VPN ? Why not just use regular accounts and databases instead ?

Perplexed.  Huh

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
How can you motivate anyone who just owns 1 or even 10 masternodes to participate, in the current setup/configuration? It's just a formality without any significance whatsoever.

Criticism can go both ways.

Say you have a group of whales that control 30% of the coin.

If you go with 10% as a requirement => you get "but the whales control 30% of the coins" type of criticism
if you go with 50% as a requirement => you get "but the small MN owner will always require whale support to even get their proposal rolling. If the whales don't bother, it's all irrelevant for the small guy"
sr. member
Activity: 317
Merit: 1012
Same but the main reason I do is the amount of trolling the whole blocksize debate attracted, way more than any kind of rational disagreement could generate so someone had something to gain by it, pretty much the same as this thread until recently.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000


The patch is there because there is a vulnerability. Removing the patch and pretending the vulnerability just isn't there is simply going to make matters worse.

There is no immediate crisis. The blockchain can get 10MB blocks tomorrow morning and a script kiddie can fill them with zero-fee txs by tomorrow evening. Will people cry "ohhh the blocks are full, we are in crisis"?

The network capacity of BTC is at least double the amount of non-dust/non spam TXs and trivial value TXs. The dust/spam TXs should, over time, be eliminated altogether through higher fees. The blockchain is a very valuable resource and it should not be treated like a dumpster.

When legitimate and non-trivial / non-spam transactions start to crowd the 1MB limit - let's say ~80-90%, that's the time of action.

I agree, the blockchain can absurb plenty more "real" transactions before there is a crisis. Very good points.

Nonetheless, I support Bitcoin XT and I'm pretty sure a lot of people in our community do. Hell, I'd support them for no reason other than Theymos' blatant censorship of them. I won't derail this thread any further, but suffice it to say that I'm probably not the only one who respects people of action like Gavin and Mike--even if those actions aren't perfect.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
LOL Noah! I was about to make a Star Wars reference as well Grin

You know it really feels like Rebels vs Empire.

Rebels: DASH and BitcoinXT crowd (which are very receptive to Evan's suggestions to scaling and funding!)
Empire: XMR-brigade and bitcoin-core

DASH should not be in any way affiliated with the rogue BitcoinXT.

Bitcoin's scaling is bitcoin's issue. These guys were trying to fork Bitcoin in two with something like a power grab. Dash is an altcoin, so it can do whatever it likes with its own blockchain and possible strategies on how scaling can be accomplished.

I'm personally a big fan of Bitcoin XT. After two years of arguing and doing absolutely nothing, a couple of developers had the balls to actually DO something. It's like my dad says "Do something, even if it's wrong."

The whole argument on scaling is wrong and their action is wrong too.

Satoshi accepted the 1MB patch because the system had a vulnerability. This vulnerability has not been fixed. How can you revert the patch if you haven't found a solution?

Real action = find a solution = apply a proper patch.

Reverting the patch, especially when there is no real need = idiotic.

The only thing that's idiotic is not doing anything until you have a perfect solution. It's the real world--you do what you can to solve the immediate crisis and THEN you continue your work on the perfect solution.

The patch is there because there is a vulnerability. Removing the patch and pretending the vulnerability just isn't there is simply going to make matters worse.

There is no immediate crisis. The blockchain can get 10MB blocks tomorrow morning and a script kiddie can fill them with zero-fee txs by tomorrow evening. Will people cry "ohhh the blocks are full, we are in crisis"?

The network capacity of BTC is at least double the amount of non-dust/non spam TXs and trivial value TXs. The dust/spam TXs should, over time, be eliminated altogether through higher fees. The blockchain is a very valuable resource and it should not be treated like a dumpster.

When legitimate and non-trivial / non-spam transactions start to crowd the 1MB limit - let's say ~80-90%, that's the time of action.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
LOL Noah! I was about to make a Star Wars reference as well Grin

You know it really feels like Rebels vs Empire.

Rebels: DASH and BitcoinXT crowd (which are very receptive to Evan's suggestions to scaling and funding!)
Empire: XMR-brigade and bitcoin-core

DASH should not be in any way affiliated with the rogue BitcoinXT.

Bitcoin's scaling is bitcoin's issue. These guys were trying to fork Bitcoin in two with something like a power grab. Dash is an altcoin, so it can do whatever it likes with its own blockchain and possible strategies on how scaling can be accomplished.

I'm personally a big fan of Bitcoin XT. After two years of arguing and doing absolutely nothing, a couple of developers had the balls to actually DO something. It's like my dad says "Do something, even if it's wrong."

The whole argument on scaling is wrong and their action is wrong too.

Satoshi accepted the 1MB patch because the system had a vulnerability. This vulnerability has not been fixed. How can you revert the patch if you haven't found a solution?

Real action = find a solution = apply a proper patch.

Reverting the patch, especially when there is no real need = idiotic.

The only thing that's idiotic is not doing anything until you have a perfect solution. It's the real world--you do what you can to solve the immediate crisis and THEN you continue your work on the perfect solution.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
LOL Noah! I was about to make a Star Wars reference as well Grin

You know it really feels like Rebels vs Empire.

Rebels: DASH and BitcoinXT crowd (which are very receptive to Evan's suggestions to scaling and funding!)
Empire: XMR-brigade and bitcoin-core

DASH should not be in any way affiliated with the rogue BitcoinXT.

Bitcoin's scaling is bitcoin's issue. These guys were trying to fork Bitcoin in two with something like a power grab. Dash is an altcoin, so it can do whatever it likes with its own blockchain and possible strategies on how scaling can be accomplished.

I'm personally a big fan of Bitcoin XT. After two years of arguing and doing absolutely nothing, a couple of developers had the balls to actually DO something. It's like my dad says "Do something, even if it's wrong."

The whole argument on scaling is wrong and their action is wrong too.

Satoshi accepted the 1MB patch because the system had a vulnerability. This vulnerability has not been fixed. How can you revert the patch if you haven't found a solution?

Real action = find a solution = apply a proper patch.

Reverting the patch, especially when there is no real need = idiotic.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
LOL Noah! I was about to make a Star Wars reference as well Grin

You know it really feels like Rebels vs Empire.

Rebels: DASH and BitcoinXT crowd (which are very receptive to Evan's suggestions to scaling and funding!)
Empire: XMR-brigade and bitcoin-core

DASH should not be in any way affiliated with the rogue BitcoinXT.

Bitcoin's scaling is bitcoin's issue. These guys were trying to fork Bitcoin in two with something like a power grab. Dash is an altcoin, so it can do whatever it likes with its own blockchain and possible strategies on how scaling can be accomplished.

I'm personally a big fan of Bitcoin XT. After two years of arguing and doing absolutely nothing, a couple of developers had the balls to actually DO something. It's like my dad says "Do something, even if it's wrong."
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
LOL Noah! I was about to make a Star Wars reference as well Grin

You know it really feels like Rebels vs Empire.

Rebels: DASH and BitcoinXT crowd (which are very receptive to Evan's suggestions to scaling and funding!)
Empire: XMR-brigade and bitcoin-core

DASH should not be in any way affiliated with the rogue BitcoinXT.

Bitcoin's scaling is bitcoin's issue. These guys were trying to fork Bitcoin in two with something like a power grab. Dash is an altcoin, so it can do whatever it likes with its own blockchain and possible strategies on how scaling can be accomplished.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1023
legendary
Activity: 1450
Merit: 1013
Cryptanalyst castrated by his government, 1952

P.S. I'm not really concerned. Most people in democracies don't vote in any event.

I never vote irl or in crypto fwiw.

Over time I came to realize that voting implies agreeing to be bound by the outcome.

I much prefer to make my own decisions in life rather than feel bound by group decisions, and since I don't buy the "accept vote outcomes only if you win" ethos, I choose not to vote - anywhere.

Of course this position was originally formed in the context of political forced-choice false-dichotomy voting and I am definitely not saying that is the voting climate in DASH. However, for me the principle holds in even the most benign voting situations - I must ask myself if I am willing to be bound by the outcome, win or lose. If not - if I would want to sell my DASH after a particular outcome for instance, then I would have the dilemma of feeling locked in to a course I did not agree with. If I don't participate in the making of a decision - if I don't have skin in the game - then I can more objectively assess whether the resulting product is a good fit for me.

For those of you who believe the "voter apathy" meme - sometimes it's not about apathy at all.

Don't get me wrong - voting is a useful tool for breaking deadlocks in a group, for choosing a group path. I have no objection to its use but it's not a tool this (contented) MN holder will ever use. On reflection, I am a consumer/user/fan of DASH rather than part of its developer community. In the unlikely event that something better popped up, I would jump ship with sadness but not regret.

I felt a need to explain my position, for some reason, and it helped me to think it through.       Embarrassed
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1005
DASH is the future of crypto payments!
I would buy more Dash and start more nodes, but my wife would kill me  Wink

Mr. D, I have this exact same problem.  Grin
You guys think you`re the only ones?
Looks like all woman are the same Wink
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
I would buy more Dash and start more nodes, but my wife would kill me  Wink

Mr. D, I have this exact same problem.  Grin
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