Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 1495. (Read 9723827 times)

You can't pay supermarkets in 'cash'.

What we commonly recognise as cash is actually credit denominated paper notes as opposed to cash denominated credit notes.

In other words things are so turned on their head that there is no cash-credit distinction anymore in the fiat economy. If there was you would definitely not be able to pay in 'cash' at a supermarket because it would involve carting lumps of gold, coal, barrels of oil or some such and there'd be a currency translation requirement for each sale.

Cryptocurrency improves things by virtue of making itself transferrable through wires but it doesn't change the fact that it's a limited supply commodity as opposed to a flexibly supply currency.

You can't use commodities as currencies without constantly repricing everything. Thats why currencies (as distinct from commodity assets) were invented because they support a high growth economy where people are coming up with new ideas all the time.

That principle isn't the problem, the problem is corruption. e.g. that liquidity is confused with value. A bank lends a mortgage holder the liquidity to buy a house but the mortgate holder has to BOTH underwrite that liquidity with 25 years of economic input AND pay the interest on the loan. Only one should prevail - i.e. you either pay the interest or you underwrite the value of the new liquidity.

Huobi: Forget the price, check the volume.

Sorry if I was so obvious about my options...LOL.

If a supermarket transaction is paid in cash, would they buffer the transaction?  How could they?  Customer pays when done.  No other changes can be processed.  It would be the same with Dash. 
 
Adopting Dash could also be a natural progression to lower overhead and use less floor space.  There are a lot of benefits with accepting Dash; no chargebacks, no fees, or extra space for the machines...or even the register line if you scan with your phone.  This is where I am spending some time figuring this all out.

Keep in mind, bitcoin is about at the point where it can't accept more transactions.  It can't add users or do more transactions.  The transaction cost will increase to limit transaction volume(1MB blocks).  At that point it can't be used for transactions and it will get REPLACED by Dash.  Then it loses value.  $1,666,000s in bitcoin are getting created each day.  If $1,666,000 of it stops getting purchased, it loses it's value.  The network effect that Andreas and everyone talks about stops when the currency hits a transaction/user limit.  Be careful, with forecasting bitcoin.....I know I don't understand how the market plays with bitcoin, so I stay out of it.  I certainly don't want to invest in cassette tapes when microSD cards are the only thing people want.

Interesting point re. 'travelling between markets'. I hadn't thought of it in that way but it is quite a good way of defining 'store of value'.

I think the reason I brought up the philosophical angle was because Dash is flirting with market development rather than monetary development and I thought that might be dangerous since it's playing to its weaknesses rather than its strengths.

One of those points is a fallacy, the concept of "store of value" only exists as a means of travelling from one market to another in the same way as a stamp, envelope and the postal network behind them are a means of transporting a message from a sender to a recipient. The telegraph, the fax/telephone and email progressively replaced the stamp and envelope for the vast majority of messages and crypto will ultimately do the same for value, at the moment we're at the telegraph stage but ultimately "store of value" will become a niche reserved for special cases where there isn't a more efficient method.

I will bet Dash will pass Bitclone #2 in 6 months.  We have a few shows coming.....They will be Huge!  (said in a Trump fashion)

Ok, you might be right in a 'post crash' scenario where monetary integrity trumps convenience and currency stability and you make your own value priorities clear which I can't argue with (since I believe in markets !! LoL ).

All I'm saying is that supermarkets have their own values too. If they decide to use whatever POS system that buffers transactions for whatever reason then no arguing with them about monetary integrity is going to make a difference. They will win.

That doesn't mean that cryptocurrencies won't establish themselves as a capital asset (which is my expectation). They'll be held by banks and investment funds just like any other asset such as oil, Gold ETF's etc. I just don't think that we'll see cabbage prices denominated in bitcoin, dash any more than we'll see them denominated in gold.

DASH looks to be in the process of bottoming and consolidating for the next uptrend. If I have some spare BTC, I would buy DASH and keep for the next 6 months. It is very likely that DASH and LTC will be parity by then.

I updated Paper Wallet images and send to flare

This is like an economics 980 class.  Moderators this is as on topic as a Dash/Bitcoin discussion can get.  Please keep.
No bitclone can do this, there is too much time to wait for confirmations.  Skipping a confirmation adds risk, which isn't tolerable. 

Now adding a 2nd tier that locks transactions, with a 1st tier that secures them enables this to happen.  It is the speed that matters, it is the trustless security and transfer of wealth that matters.

Coinbase or Bitpay can't do POS transactions.  They won't risk not waiting for a block confirmation and POS can't wait 10-30 minutes.  The only option they can offer is a debit card based on bitcoin.  And then where are we.  Users Bank - coinbase - crypto - bank - debit - merchant - with what like 6% in fees?
Risk Asset?  There have been very few things that have kept their value through time.  Precious metals and land are a few.  Banks call these risk assets because they don't understand tangible assets outside of the fiat system.

The argument about fixed supply of money is interesting.  And I honestly don't know how this would work with what we have now.  There is so much debt, that it just isn't possible to do what we are doing now without some major changes.  My opinion is that faith will be lost in fiat currencies because of all the debt and nobody will want to hold on to fiat anymore.

The system we have now is flawed.  Banks create the money, they push it into the economy with low interest loans, or pull it with high interest loans.  They seize assets when customers can't pay, and make money on loans they don't actually risk much if any collateral.  The idea that flexible money supply is good is flawed.  Sure there have been a few scenarios where money was created to build infrastructure that benefited future generations.  But mostly this is wasted on wars or funneled through a bloated financial/political system.  After the dollars are created, the dollars you hold onto are worth less.  If we didn't have a fiat system siphoning money away all the technological advances over the last 100 years would have put everyone in the top 10% economic bracket.  Don't quote me on the 10%, but it would be a big improvement.

I disagree with you on this.  If a grocery store is running credit cards and pays per transaction.  It makes a ton of sense to put all these transactions together.  But if they pay with cash, it doesn't make any difference.  Dash is like Cash.  Instant, secure, private.  The grocery store will ring up the sale and done.  If there is an order change, make the change and cash/Dash goes either way.

Point of sale IS the big one.  Any merchant can accept dash with almost no infrastructure investment (no registers, no credit card machine, no trips to the bank with cash).  The value in Dash is that it can't be printed out of thin air, created by banks with loan, it is transferable instantly.  This is huge.  You will see Dash & Gas and Dash & Dine....ok probably not Dine & Dash.  Dash & Drink.  It will work and be a fundamental change.

Tao -  I identify with your enthusiasm, make no mistake. But 'the force' must be respected. In that regard there are two types of value:

[1] - utility value
[2] - monetary value

What do you notice about these ?

What I notice is that they are mutually exclusive. One does not enhance the other, it impedes it. The most perfect monetary token is one that does not go out of circulation and the most perfect utility item is one that stays in use and does not get used as a store of value.

In bitcoin troll wars, many people make the point that gold has a use in hi-fi connectors and tooth fillings and that this 'adds' to its value. But this is wrong. Monetary premium is maximised when utility premium is minimised because the latter's effect is to force the token out of circulation (or more specifically, out of its role as a store of value and into another role as a utility). There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to back this up, not least the fact that most of the world's gold supply is not residing in people's teeth but in JP Morgan's + Bank of China's vaults where its monetary premium (monetary value over cost of mining) far exceeds its utility premium (utility value over cost of mining).

Look around you. There are thousands of things that have acquired utility value. There are very few which have acquired monetary value. Monetary properties are a very rare thing and fine balance of 6 or 7 different qualities which are almost never found together. If you really think you happen to have stumbled on such a rare occurrence, you do not want to be blurring the boundary between monetary and utility roles.

For all Dash's great ideas, one of the things that fell into its lap was being in the right place at the right time. That more than anything is where its value comes from and will remain. January 2014 will never return and if Dash had been invented today it would have a mountain to climb regardless of what tech was involved. It now has a gold mine to work with - all I'm saying is use it for what it is, not what it isn't.


No it doesn't. It has the potential to acquire rare monetary properties that are only found in a couple of elements in the physical realm. One of the characteristics of good money is that it doesn't align itself with any particular sector.

What Dash needs to do (IMO) is consolidate those properties and meanwhile develop technologies that make itself accessible to markets that already have a presence in social media, retail, capital investment, and so on.

Nobody is going to invest in a capital asset because they can talk into their wallet.

Solarminer - although I agree with most of your well made points, I just wanted point out one stark truth.

No blockchain asset will ever work for point of sale - no matter how fast its confirmation time is.

Ok - it might get used by chiringuitos on the beach or the odd newsagent, but don't be fooled by these bitpay interfaces where you see business accepting bitcoin at POS. Thats just posturing to demonstrate that the asset has some value.

There are two reasons why bitcoin or any raw blockchain cryptocurrency (as opposed to crypto denominated currency) will never be used at point of sale en-masse:

[1] - Economics
Cryptocurrency is a risk-asset

That's both a good thing and a bad thing. It's a good thing because risk assets can form the basis for a monetary medium - like grain, precious metals, coal, oil, flour, whatever. They are capital assets which can 'back' other assets.

It's a bad thing because they are no use as a currency for modern retail since they are fixed supply which means that the only way they have of responding to liquidity demand (economic expansion or contraction) is through price inflation or deflation. Modern economies have gone way past trading risk assets for goods and have instead decoupled them from the currencies that they back so that the price represents the value of the good rather than the value of the currency being used to facilitate the trade.

The only problem is that they've taken this too far and are now using debt (hypothetical future economic activity) to back currencies as a majority capital base instead of a minority one.

[2] - Technology
Transferring numbers is far faster than doing transactions on a blockchain. Thats why supermarket transactions will always be buffered - regardless of what currency is used. The buffering insulates the retailer from all kinds of sh*t that can go wrong and gives them space to fix stuff before they actually commit their transactions which they may do at hourly intervals.

The example I like to use is where the cashier rings through your cornflakes on the person in front of you's credit card cos somebody put the belt separator in the wrong place. This is easily remedied by functionality in the point of sale system which incorporates all sing, all dance, reverse, push to stack, pull from stack, hold this order while the customer goes and gets the cabbage they forgot to get weighed, functionality that you could never do on the blockchain.

So forget about point of sale. It's not an issue for any crypto because thats not its job. It's job is to acquire value and to back currencies which may ultimately be used in point of sale scenarios.

However, one of the properties of money that does affect its value is mobility. This is where Dash's instant confirmation is significant because it consolidates its identity as a cash medium as opposed to a credit one. (When I use the word "cash" I'm thinking of coal, grain, oil, notes, metals - things which are immediate and tangible).

All modern assets can be traced back to cash media: tangible, instantly transferable, limited supply, unobscured, publicly accountable resources. What bitcoin did was simply to mirror those properties on an electronic platform and what Dash did was to add a simulated cash drawer (the clearing points for payments where notes get 'mixed') which was what bitcoin was missing.

Think of a cash economy in your local street. Is has "choke points" (to use Greg Maxwell's term). When you go to your newsagent to buy a newspaper, your notes and coins go in a cash drawer along with all other "inputs" for the day. They then get mixed again on an even grander scale at 6 O'Clock in the evening when the retailer deposits their takings at the bank. Moreover the cash is denominated - 1 Pence coins in 1 Pence bags, 10 Pence coins in 10 Pence bags, etc. Thats another layer of mixing. Then the coins and notes get dispersed back into the economy with not a snowballs hope in hell of tracing anything without marked notes.

That is a true cash system - open, public, visible but anonymous. Those "choke points" (the cash drawer and the bank) perform a mass anonymisation action periodically on the money supply and remove all traceability through mixing. This is how money has worked through the ages.

Oho! Trolls wake up

Any day now, right guys? 

Dash  

Vintage is good when it is a unique item.  Guitar made with certain features, sound, the maker, who played it, etc.

We are talking about Bitclones - Think Beta VCR.  Still want one now?

Bitclones is defined (credit to camosoul) by coins that secure and confirm transactions at the same time.  They will never work for point of sale.  That makes them limited to online purchases or transfers between companies/banks/countries.  (Or for users with a ton of time to wait around for point of sale transactions.)

Dash has 2 (now 3) layers.  With the ability to instantly confirm transactions, but also secure the transactions as miners solve blocks.

See the difference.  Dash, it's the new blue pill.

I'm not so sure, Tok. I may be coming at this from a different angle, but the more I think about Dash Evolution the more I get excited.

Think about this: A global social financial network, ran through a decentralized API, with advanced cryptography being the backbone under the hood. A perfect marriage of techno geeks and the teenage girl next door. Everyone in the world with a Dash page, most not even knowing what was this global network that makes it all possible.

This thing has the potential to be the Facebook of the financial realm, maybe even bigger because of the dual functionality. People that steer clear of Facebook will join Dash because of the need for financial connectivity, and the decentralized nature offers privacy and security from ID theft. It's potential is limitless.

In fact, presented this way I feel that the Winklevosses may be very interested as it could be a legit way of sticking it to Mark Zuckerberg. Evan is the new Mark, and they're invested in the wrong crypto.

This idea is bigger than huge.

ya ya...I was just busting your balls on that.  LOL.  just being a jack ass.   for the record I DO play my guitars and don't trade them out...so in some ways its like me collecting DASH.  

P.S. I just realised you might see these two theories of mine as contradictory and just wanted to clarify.

The fact that you are a guitar collector means that your guitars are "in circulation" as a monetary medium. By "in circulation" I didn't mean that it's being constantly traded, I meant that it was being held as a collectible rather than being played as a utility instrument.

i.e. for the purposes of this analysis, "going out of circulation" would mean that a member of a monetary medium left that medium and moved to a utility medium. An example of this would be a tiny bit of a gold bar being hacked off a JP Morgan vault for use in a tooth filling.

While it was in J.P. Morgan's vault it is "in circulation" (as a monetary medium), while it's in a tooth it's "out of circulation" (and in a utility medium).

red bot versus green bot, please place you bet gentlemen :



Green bot looks to be gaining the upper hand after that 0.99 order

It's probably a Dashtard running these bots, so you can claim later that it's a grand conspiracy