[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 3516.

splawik21

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1005

DASH is the future of crypto payments!

Quote from: youngmike on November 13, 2014, 09:52:18 AM

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 12, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PM

@lonecrouton, having only masternodes will highly centralize dark. There is thousands of miners, vs a thousand and some masternodes. Centralisation.

You are a fucking moron.

(In case anyone is unaware, louiseth1 is one of those 3 people, running suchpool.)

I'm so happy I dumped this DRK crap a long time ago

i am happy as well.... you dumped it. More for us MNers.

illodin

hero member

Activity: 966

Merit: 1003

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 13, 2014, 09:29:07 AM

If you cared about the security of the blockchain, you wouldn't be running a centralised pool.

That's not exactly true.

Either no one should run a pool, or as many people as possible should run a pool.

Running a pool must be prevented in the protocol level for the former to happen, so as long as running a pool is possible, it's actually better the more people run one.

youngmike

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 12, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PM

@lonecrouton, having only masternodes will highly centralize dark. There is thousands of miners, vs a thousand and some masternodes. Centralisation.

You are a fucking moron.

(In case anyone is unaware, louiseth1 is one of those 3 people, running suchpool.)

I'm so happy I dumped this DRK crap a long time ago

Spratan

hero member

Activity: 689

Merit: 507

Quote from: Jesse Livermore on November 12, 2014, 02:18:02 PM

Anyone else jump on the XCP train like me weeks ago? Lol holy hell. Just moved some of those profits into more DRK. Gotta love crypto.
JL

I did but haven't taken profits to move here back again, I am not sure XCP have finished to grow. Are you "sure" DRK is ready ?

eduffield

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1036

Dash Developer

Darkcoin Testnet - v0.16.2 - Please Update!

The network hasn't updated yet, please upgrade if you're running a client or help help test if you can.

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/v16-x-testing.2976/page-4#post-29202

thelonecrouton

legendary

Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

Lol you're talking as if I could just decided and start forking the network..

You could, or you could be coerced into doing so, or for example some employee at the datacentre could be bribed into restarting your pool servers with malicious code replacing your existing code, etc.

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

Are you aware you need at LEAST 51% to do that? Are you aware that i'm nowhere near that 50%?

You are wrong. Less that 51% still causes problems, >51% just guarantees success.

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

If anything, we help the darkcoin blockchain stay strong against 40gh/s hammers moving around such as waffle and god knows what other pools (the unknowns). I doubt its the p2pool at 1% of the hash who will protect it from any fork.

As of right now, we have a use wether you like it or not.

I have never questioned your personal integrity, I am merely pointing out your vulnerability, which is a vulnerability to everyone who owns DRK.

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

You can keep whining, this won't make us go away nor help your cause. In society, you sometimes have to work with other peoples towards greater good, which you're not.

You and moli can keep bitching about me all day long on IRC, ditto. Wink

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

You're biting the hand that feeds you at the moment, yet again.

You don't feed anyone but yourself. If you cared about the security of the blockchain, you wouldn't be running a centralised pool.

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

None of your points stands yet because since the beginning we have been supportive and complying with the darkcoin community to all extents. If you are to pick a target, at LEAST pick up some that is not trustworthy or not cooperating as much as they should be. We're always one of the fastest, if not the fastest pool to upgrade it's daemons at every update.

I don't think my point has been understood by you, much less addressed. You are in denial about the basic risk that you pose to the network.

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 09:05:46 AM

Edit; crouton you the almighty, why don't you just come up with the code to make the standard pools p2pool? I'm all ears, bring it we'll try it

Here you go: https://bitbucket.org/dstorm/p2pool-drk.git Grin

- let me know when you're done, I'll point my rigs your way.

strix

full member

Activity: 231

Merit: 100

Quote from: thefrog on November 13, 2014, 09:23:36 AM

With p2pool, everyone mines to his own DRK address directly.
There is no database and no periodic payouts based on information in a database, as is the case with central pools.

A miner gets payout as soon as a block is solved. No third party involved.

And you can chose any of the p2pool nodes (usually the one that is network wise the nearest, with lowest latency) to connect to.

I think I get that (but maybe not), but could not a private pool feed the output of its database to the p2pool, recieve the reward from p2pool, and distribute it according to the contents of its database? Again, I am way out of my depth, and have no idea what I am talking about. :-(

thefrog

sr. member

Activity: 393

Merit: 250

With p2pool, everyone mines to his own DRK address directly.
There is no database and no periodic payouts based on information in a database, as is the case with central pools.

A miner gets payout as soon as a block is solved. No third party involved.

And you can chose any of the p2pool nodes (usually the one that is network wise the nearest, with lowest latency) to connect to.

Setting a p2pool node is really simple, just the daemon and the p2pool web server. Not even as 'complicated' as setting up a MN.

strix

full member

Activity: 231

Merit: 100

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 13, 2014, 07:58:53 AM

Look outside, it's an ugly world and people get killed every day for far less than the matket cap of DRK. Hoping that it will never happen is not a plan.

I have nothing against mining, I mine on p2pool, always have, but centralised pools are a huge liability.

Could you not make suchpool a p2pool node instead? Most of your miners would never know the difference and you would actually be helping to secure the network. At the moment, you're not, you're just a centralised point of failure.

Darkcoin right now (most cryptocurrencies right now) is NOT decentralised, we and other currencies have no right to call ourselves decentralised when a handful of people are in control of the blockchain, it's a complete lie.

Everyone panics about small theoretical flaws in the Darksend protocol while ignoring the giant security flaw with centralised PoW... Huh

+1
I do not pretend to understand all the subtleties of this debate, but it seems clear that Crouton is not imagining this problem. On the other hand, "to the victor go the spoils." In that sense, if someone can convince enough people to mine on a particular pool they earn the renumeration they extract. What would be the financial disincentive to making suchpool a p2pool node? Again, I don't know how such things work, but I am imagining that p2pool would be "fed" the blocks mined by suchpool by the "owner" who would receive the payout. If he honestly distributes those to the members of suchpool (after taking his cut), would this satisfy everyone? Is this even technically feasible?

As I reread this it makes me think that this reveals a method for a "sneak attack." Could an entity use the above method to create a private pool, but hide it within p2pool. It would look like p2pool is growing in its control of the hash-rate. No one would worry--we would be thrilled to see that p2pool had 80% of the hash-rate--All is well and we are finally safe from a 51% attack. Then the embedded private pool withdraws its 51% and BOOM.

Sadly, I have no idea what I am talking about, so I hope saner minds will prevail.

Peace to you all,

Strix

CryptoSiD

hero member

Activity: 631

Merit: 500

Former SuchPool Admin

First. 3 pools having 51% isn't a problem, its not 1 pool but 3 pools so 3 wallets
Second. Saying that 3 peoples own 56% of the network is totaly wrong, there's more than 10k miners on those pools.

louiseth1

legendary

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Bitfarms.io

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 13, 2014, 08:51:48 AM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 08:30:48 AM

Stop thinking in what ifs... see this as I am a town mayor, citizens elected me (by coming into our pool) to represent them. Our track record is mint, so why are you wasting your time bothering us when there is bigger and potentially harming fish to fry? Spare your time, leave us the fuck alone Wink

Why would I be intentionally killing the blockchain?
Are you retarded?

Probably an unstable individual like you, in my position, would do so. I just won't. Are you trying to push me to do so? Won't work.

Either way, you're the kind of guy that will ever be complaining about something or another, so I'm getting used to your whining.

Sure, wishful thinking is a great way to implement security! Bad things never happen, why worry about it? Anyone who thinks having their finances completely at the mercy of a few people on the intertubes is a problem must be unstable!

Roll Eyes

Lol you're talking as if I could just decided and start forking the network..

Are you aware you need at LEAST 51% to do that? Are you aware that i'm nowhere near that 50%?

If anything, we help the darkcoin blockchain stay strong against 40gh/s hammers moving around such as waffle and god knows what other pools (the unknowns). I doubt its the p2pool at 1% of the hash who will protect it from any fork.

As of right now, we have a use wether you like it or not.

You can keep whining, this won't make us go away nor help your cause. In society, you sometimes have to work with other peoples towards greater good, which you're not. You're biting the hand that feeds you at the moment, yet again.

None of your points stands yet because since the beginning we have been supportive and complying with the darkcoin community to all extents. If you are to pick a target, at LEAST pick up some that is not trustworthy or not cooperating as much as they should be. We're always one of the fastest, if not the fastest pool to upgrade it's daemons at every update.

Edit; crouton you the almighty, why don't you just come up with the code to make the standard pools p2pool? I'm all ears, bring it we'll try it

salmion

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 13, 2014, 08:52:31 AM

Quote from: salmion on November 13, 2014, 08:47:47 AM

And singling out suchpool when they updated quickly a few times now doesn't help anything.

The fact that they can be singled out is kind of the point.

I get you I really do. And I'd be backing you up all the way normally but the way you are going about it is counterproductive in my opinion.

thelonecrouton

legendary

Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Quote from: salmion on November 13, 2014, 08:47:47 AM

And singling out suchpool when they updated quickly a few times now doesn't help anything.

The fact that they can be singled out is kind of the point.

thelonecrouton

legendary

Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 08:30:48 AM

Stop thinking in what ifs... see this as I am a town mayor, citizens elected me (by coming into our pool) to represent them. Our track record is mint, so why are you wasting your time bothering us when there is bigger and potentially harming fish to fry? Spare your time, leave us the fuck alone Wink

Why would I be intentionally killing the blockchain?
Are you retarded?

Probably an unstable individual like you, in my position, would do so. I just won't. Are you trying to push me to do so? Won't work.

Either way, you're the kind of guy that will ever be complaining about something or another, so I'm getting used to your whining.

Sure, wishful thinking is a great way to implement security! Bad things never happen, why worry about it? Anyone who thinks having their finances completely at the mercy of a few people on the intertubes is a problem must be unstable!

Roll Eyes

GhostPlayer

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1000

Quote from: RenegadeMan on November 13, 2014, 08:41:06 AM

What would it take for you to convert suchpool into a p2pool node? Can you comment on this?

That's just no feasible. Suchpool are top notch guys, x11 pioneers and supporters. Unlike Waffle. Much respect to them.

salmion

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Can we stop with the giant red scribble image now please.

I'm all for p2pool but we can discuss this without all the shouting.

And singling out suchpool when they updated quickly a few times now doesn't help anything.

RenegadeMan

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 08:30:48 AM

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 13, 2014, 07:58:53 AM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 12:55:52 AM

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 12, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PM

@lonecrouton, having only masternodes will highly centralize dark. There is thousands of miners, vs a thousand and some masternodes. Centralisation.

You are a fucking moron.

(In case anyone is unaware, louiseth1 is one of those 3 people, running suchpool.)

Yes with 1000's of miners behind it.. it's not ME mining all those blocks myself, you seem to forget that with your closed vision. I just help all those miners to get together and enjoy a smooth platform.

There were a lot of organic pools before, but most of the big ones have fell off, and the users came to ours. We've been honest with the community and true supporters of darkcoin since its early days. Your point is just not constructive and plainly stupid.

At least on my darkcoin pool, the miners WANT to mine darkcoin. I deliver straight to the darkcoin community. In the case of waffle, its just rape n dump as the miners don't care about anything else than bitcoin. That's what should be avoided.

It doesn't matter how many miners are 'behind it' - they are all under your control, and you could either choose or be coerced into vandalising the blockchain, forking the network, crashing the price of DRK, basically killing the coin. Such an event would fuck all of us up, and pools like yours make it a dirt cheap possibility for any attacker. They don't need to spend millions on hardware to screw the newtwork, they just have to find you.

Look outside, it's an ugly world and people get killed every day for far less than the matket cap of DRK. Hoping that it will never happen is not a plan.

I have nothing against mining, I mine on p2pool, always have, but centralised pools are a huge liability.

Could you not make suchpool a p2pool node instead? Most of your miners would never know the difference and you would actually be helping to secure the network. At the moment, you're not, you're just a centralised point of failure.

Darkcoin right now (most cryptocurrencies right now) is NOT decentralised, we and other currencies have no right to call ourselves decentralised when a handful of people are in control of the blockchain, it's a complete lie.

Everyone panics about small theoretical flaws in the Darksend protocol while ignoring the giant security flaw with centralised PoW... Huh

Stop thinking in what ifs... see this as I am a town mayor, citizens elected me (by coming into our pool) to represent them. Our track record is mint, so why are you wasting your time bothering us when there is bigger and potentially harming fish to fry? Spare your time, leave us the fuck alone Wink

Why would I be intentionally killing the blockchain?
Are you retarded?

Probably an unstable individual like you, in my position, would do so. I just won't. Are you trying to push me to do so? Won't work.

Either way, you're the kind of guy that will ever be complaining about something or another, so I'm getting used to your whining.

As I see it thelonecrouton does has some valid points about the problem of mining pools being too centralised. The issue is not about personalities or whether someone would or would not do something to potentially fork DRK's blockchain and cause a massive problem. The issue is that the three largest mining pools do have more than 51% control of the network and the network is totally beholden to the security and certainty with which these mining pools are conducted.

In thinking "what ifs", I think thelonecrouton is simply undertaking some level of basic risk assessment and he's trying to get some sort of indication that others see the risk too and would like to consider ways of mitigating it.

What would it take for you to convert suchpool into a p2pool node? Can you comment on this?

louiseth1

legendary

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Bitfarms.io

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 13, 2014, 07:58:53 AM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 13, 2014, 12:55:52 AM

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 12, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PM

@lonecrouton, having only masternodes will highly centralize dark. There is thousands of miners, vs a thousand and some masternodes. Centralisation.

You are a fucking moron.

(In case anyone is unaware, louiseth1 is one of those 3 people, running suchpool.)

Yes with 1000's of miners behind it.. it's not ME mining all those blocks myself, you seem to forget that with your closed vision. I just help all those miners to get together and enjoy a smooth platform.

There were a lot of organic pools before, but most of the big ones have fell off, and the users came to ours. We've been honest with the community and true supporters of darkcoin since its early days. Your point is just not constructive and plainly stupid.

At least on my darkcoin pool, the miners WANT to mine darkcoin. I deliver straight to the darkcoin community. In the case of waffle, its just rape n dump as the miners don't care about anything else than bitcoin. That's what should be avoided.

It doesn't matter how many miners are 'behind it' - they are all under your control, and you could either choose or be coerced into vandalising the blockchain, forking the network, crashing the price of DRK, basically killing the coin. Such an event would fuck all of us up, and pools like yours make it a dirt cheap possibility for any attacker. They don't need to spend millions on hardware to screw the newtwork, they just have to find you.

Look outside, it's an ugly world and people get killed every day for far less than the matket cap of DRK. Hoping that it will never happen is not a plan.

I have nothing against mining, I mine on p2pool, always have, but centralised pools are a huge liability.

Could you not make suchpool a p2pool node instead? Most of your miners would never know the difference and you would actually be helping to secure the network. At the moment, you're not, you're just a centralised point of failure.

Darkcoin right now (most cryptocurrencies right now) is NOT decentralised, we and other currencies have no right to call ourselves decentralised when a handful of people are in control of the blockchain, it's a complete lie.

Everyone panics about small theoretical flaws in the Darksend protocol while ignoring the giant security flaw with centralised PoW... Huh

Stop thinking in what ifs... see this as I am a town mayor, citizens elected me (by coming into our pool) to represent them. Our track record is mint, so why are you wasting your time bothering us when there is bigger and potentially harming fish to fry? Spare your time, leave us the fuck alone Wink

Why would I be intentionally killing the blockchain?
Are you retarded?

Probably an unstable individual like you, in my position, would do so. I just won't. Are you trying to push me to do so? Won't work.

Either way, you're the kind of guy that will ever be complaining about something or another, so I'm getting used to your whining.

GhostPlayer

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1000

Quote from: thefrog on November 13, 2014, 08:13:44 AM

And that is WHY people should start using p2pool.

Except that they earn /marginally/ more than with centralized pool, that is, and secure to make the system really decentralized.

here here !! plus one!

DonQuijote

legendary

Activity: 1551

Merit: 1002

♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ < ♛♚&#

Quote from: thelonecrouton on November 12, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

Quote from: louiseth1 on November 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PM

@lonecrouton, having only masternodes will highly centralize dark. There is thousands of miners, vs a thousand and some masternodes. Centralisation.

[img]http://s10.postimg.org/elcsnnb6h/image.png[ /img]

You are a fucking moron.

(In case anyone is unaware, louiseth1 is one of those 3 people, running suchpool.)

Wafflepool is a multipool, no darkpool, but yes, darkcoin have a problem.

Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 3516. (Read 9723748 times)