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Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 4746. (Read 9723832 times)

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
The way I understand it, nothing is added to the blockchain between the green boxes. The masternodes never actually hold the funds, they just facilitate signing. Someone correct me if I am mistaken.  
This is correct the masternodes never actually hold the funds they just facilitate transactions.
Pardon me for playing Devil's Advocate: But, if the coins don't actually change hands, how does this obfuscate anything?

XC is coin-forwarding (coins go to the node). DRK's masternode simply signs transactions.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
Closed source boo-hoo !!

Quote
Code Review

Kristov Atlas has agreed to be the first to review the Darksend code. Kristov will be evaluating anonymity and overall design of our technology and will report his findings publicly. We’ll be sending the code to him soon and we anticipate that we will hear back from Kristov by the end of the month.

What i love about Kristov is that he is a highly skeptical person by nature, but open-minded enough for pure objectivity.
 He's a brilliant observer and interpreter.

All the hallmarks of a great and thorough scientist.

I hope he can also provide some feedback for even greater levels of obfuscation / anonymity - if he finds areas of improvement Cool
legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
instead of bickering over whats the best algo for making an individual transaction disappear, just turn the entire f*cking coin supply into mist !!!
I agree that this makes sense for an objective, BUT:

Do the wallet-sent TX stand out in that mist? I still think the client should denominate before it sends to a masternode. This might happen by default per the pre-mix. But, sends from wallets are still not sends from identified MNs, so it's something identifiably not mist going into the mist... Thus, it might be identified coming out. I'd like to see a denominated multi-point-exit to shore this up.

It looks like it's almost there to me... I'd start my explanation of why I say that by saying first, it looks like the mist moved from the client to the MNS, and the identifiable part moved from the MNs to the clients... Now, this is not 100% true because the clients are receiving pre-mixed. But quantities and timing are still potentially, sometimes identifiable. Noted, there is a percentage linked on a google docs spreadsheet. Probability it not absolutely. That's why it's called probability and not absolutely.

If the client sent out DRK in the same denominations, and with the same IP obfuscation (which pre-suppsoes that there will be IP obfuscation added at some point) as the MNs used, there would be no way to know what the hell was going to where. IF change came out of the 8-box look randomly;

1) sometimes skipping a block in timing
2) some bits coming out earlier than others. (MN2 sends one hunk of denominated change, MN5 sends another hunk, etc)

Then the when goes to hell too.

Also, the 10 block cycle is a cycle, not a mist. It's the opposite of homogeneous...

Then you've truly got a homogeneous mist going. The picture/updated info is a mist into which a somewhat thicker mist comes and goes... It's not quite homogenous.

Don't take this as an insult or a troll. It's damn near perfect now. I'm just thinking out loud about how to make it a little MORE perfect...

I wonder if blowjayxt, our resident homojenius wants to chime in on how this is or is not homogeneous?

I'd thought of this as well, and it does seem superior (random exit points for change for mix > 2). It might be a pain to implement though; I think I need to mull it over a bit more.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250

Sorry if has been answered already, but what if I hold 26.1301456 DRK in my wallet - does anonymization operate down to the single Duff level?

No, it'll be mix of amounts.

The duff! He definitely deserves to be immortalized in the terminology
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1005
DASH is the future of crypto payments!
hero member
Activity: 503
Merit: 500
Na Zdorovie!
Trolls paid with rollback coins

Because, They don't make an explanation unless a dick enters to devs asses...
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
instead of bickering over whats the best algo for making an individual transaction disappear, just turn the entire f*cking coin supply into mist !!!
I agree that this makes sense for an objective, BUT:

Do the wallet-sent TX stand out in that mist? I still think the client should denominate before it sends to a masternode. This might happen by default per the pre-mix. But, sends from wallets are still not sends from identified MNs, so it's something identifiably not mist going into the mist... Thus, it might be identified coming out. I'd like to see a denominated multi-point-exit to shore this up.

It looks like it's almost there to me... I'd start my explanation of why I say that by saying first, it looks like the mist moved from the client to the MNS, and the identifiable part moved from the MNs to the clients... Now, this is not 100% true because the clients are receiving pre-mixed. But quantities and timing are still potentially, sometimes identifiable. Noted, there is a percentage linked on a google docs spreadsheet. Probability it not absolutely. That's why it's called probability and not absolutely.

If the client sent out DRK in the same denominations, and with the same IP obfuscation (which pre-suppsoes that there will be IP obfuscation added at some point) as the MNs used, there would be no way to know what the hell was going to where. IF change came out of the 8-box look randomly;

1) sometimes skipping a block in timing
2) some bits coming out earlier than others. (MN2 sends one hunk of denominated change, MN5 sends another hunk, etc)

Then the when goes to hell too.

Also, the 10 block cycle is a cycle, not a mist. It's the opposite of homogeneous...

Then you've truly got a homogeneous mist going. The picture/updated info is a mist into which a somewhat thicker mist comes and goes... It's not quite homogenous.

Don't take this as an insult or a troll. It's damn near perfect now. I'm just thinking out loud about how to make it a little MORE perfect...

I wonder if blowjayxt, our resident homojenius wants to chime in on how this is or is not homogeneous?

Very good points. A good place to start with regards to the block cycle might be to assign it a random probabilty that stands to have it occur somewhere between every 5-15 blocks or so.

The ultimate goal is to seamlessly hide the person-to-person transactions among the general mixing so that one cannot discern the difference.

I know this probably won't be popular (speed-wise) but maybe a good approach would be for people to have the option to wait for the general mixing to send a transaction (built into the client)? It would certainly slow down transaction speed but if the transaction were synced with the general mixing it would be very difficult to track. It could be implemented in the form of a checkbox perhaps? Maybe call it DarkMist.

Would it even be possible to do the general mixing every block or two, or would that be too much of a burden on the network?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
Trolls paid with rollback coins
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
www.OroCoin.co
Sorry if has been answered already, but what if I hold 26.1301456 DRK in my wallet - does anonymization operate down to the single Duff level?
No, it'll be mix of amounts.
So that dangly bit might echo for eternity...
legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
The way I understand it, nothing is added to the blockchain between the green boxes. The masternodes never actually hold the funds, they just facilitate signing. Someone correct me if I am mistaken.  
This is correct the masternodes never actually hold the funds they just facilitate transactions.
Pardon me for playing Devil's Advocate: But, if the coins don't actually change hands, how does this obfuscate anything?

They are still mixed with all the other "dirty" coins with a group signature as before. They "do" change hands, just from your right hand to your left hand if you will. The additional nodes reduces the chance of collusion to near 0. Each "hop" occurs every ten minutes as specified; so your coins will be with multiple participants *each* hop

Also, assuming user-defined mixing depth (or even just assuming minimum depth of two), coins would be entering and leaving the "train" (masternode chain in the graphic) at different intervals, not all after #8 (which would be an extended mixing time of approx. 3h 20m for your coins).
hero member
Activity: 503
Merit: 500
Na Zdorovie!
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1001

Sorry if has been answered already, but what if I hold 26.1301456 DRK in my wallet - does anonymization operate down to the single Duff level?

No, it'll be mix of amounts.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
Darkcoin Is The eCash Economy™
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1001

Exactly what I was thinking. There's probably not much more pathetic in this world than a troll fanboy. It ranks even lower than a racist whinging miner troll looking for attention.

Come off it, it was a backhanded complement!  He was being facetious!
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 105

Sorry if has been answered already, but what if I hold 26.1301456 DRK in my wallet - does anonymization operate down to the single satoshi level?

Denominations go down to .001 DRK.  Anything below that goes to the miners that found the block as a fee.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
www.OroCoin.co
instead of bickering over whats the best algo for making an individual transaction disappear, just turn the entire f*cking coin supply into mist !!!
I agree that this makes sense for an objective, BUT:

Do the wallet-sent TX stand out in that mist? I still think the client should denominate before it sends to a masternode. This might happen by default per the pre-mix. But, sends from wallets are still not sends from identified MNs, so it's something identifiably not mist going into the mist... Thus, it might be identified coming out. I'd like to see a denominated multi-point-exit to shore this up.

It looks like it's almost there to me... I'd start my explanation of why I say that by saying first, it looks like the mist moved from the client to the MNS, and the identifiable part moved from the MNs to the clients... Now, this is not 100% true because the clients are receiving pre-mixed. But quantities and timing are still potentially, sometimes identifiable. Noted, there is a percentage linked on a google docs spreadsheet. Probability it not absolutely. That's why it's called probability and not absolutely.

If the client sent out DRK in the same denominations, and with the same IP obfuscation (which pre-suppsoes that there will be IP obfuscation added at some point) as the MNs used, there would be no way to know what the hell was going to where. IF change came out of the 8-box look randomly;

1) sometimes skipping a block in timing
2) some bits coming out earlier than others. (MN2 sends one hunk of denominated change, MN5 sends another hunk, etc)

Then the when goes to hell too.

Also, the 10 block cycle is a cycle, not a mist. It's the opposite of homogeneous...

Then you've truly got a homogeneous mist going. The picture/updated info is a mist into which a somewhat thicker mist comes and goes... It's not quite homogenous.

Don't take this as an insult or a troll. It's damn near perfect now. I'm just thinking out loud about how to make it a little MORE perfect...

I wonder if blowjayxt, our resident homojenius wants to chime in on how this is or is not homogeneous?
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
So you can verify any transaction between buyer and seller just like you do now, but you are using previously mixed and denominated coins so that it is really a fog for everyone else! It is just brilliant, basically ecash! Great for business applications and way better than Bitcoin for B2B.

+1

It is brilliant. It solves a lot of issues I often wondered about (like the advantages of being able to use block explorer to check the transaction happened) while at the same time *improving* anonymity by generalising it to the entire coin supply.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000

Sorry if has been answered already, but what if I hold 26.1301456 DRK in my wallet - does anonymization operate down to the single satoshi level?

0.01 DRK

Edit 0.001 DRK (what he said down below  Grin)

Sorry to be terse, but there are other threads discussing Bitcoin. This is about the future.
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