Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 191. (Read 583278 times)

What do you think? Which of dogeyo_to_tokyo's pics would best fit for a Karmashares logo?

http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php?topic=582.0

I am sure that the Karma price will rise again. Until then, I would like to ask you to give me your ideas on how to liquidize the 16,238,800 Karma raised for saving innocence on the market.
In case we opt for selling them on the exchanges: please let me know your thoughts on 1) minum price and 2)% of daily transaction volume for the amount sold per day. This post is meant to be a brainstorm and does not constitute an official poll or decision. Just would like to hear your thoughts on this. We will make an official poll later on. Your thoughts please.

KarmaKaguy

"Go for it!" - Rocky Balboa

No you did not, it is technically unsolvable and I already explained why. You just ignored that.


I already wrote calculation before, that it will be around 20 million shares. Right now there are around 80 million, so it will be 20% of all shares.



20% of 2,5 million USD => 500.000 USD. If half million is shit, than please give me that shit. Even if 100% is reinvested, they will own 20% of future profits.


The rules are simple, hold 5 million coins in wallet for 30+ more days. Which of that rule are exchanges violating?


When this will happen, it will cost Karma community 500.000 USD.


I am afraid you just pointed out flaws in your logic.

This is my last post, I am going on few days vacation. So don't worry, I will not argue with you either, in fact, I am surprised I had to. This problem is so obvious I didn't think someone would argue with me this way.

no joke, you raised an issue and I gave you simple technical reasons why they can be resolved.

you were talking specifically about some hypothetical rogue entity (exchange or whatever) claiming Karmashares with coins that they hold in a wallet for 30 days. this process is not how most Karmashares are claimed.

I pointed out very clearly that this scenario does not hold water for many technical reasons.

since the vast majority of Karmashares were purchased legitimately by investors the number of Karmashares received by the method you described would be very small indeed.

so really you are just trying to push shit up hill because you believe that there is significant problem when there really isn't one.

you claim that a legal entity has the obligation to pay all it's shareholders equally.. I never said they didn't.

I just pointed out that if those shares are obtained fraudulently then they aren't valid and those people are not shareholders so the legal entity is under no obligation legal or otherwise to pay them dividends.

no doubt if someone wants to break the rules and then claim that their shares are legitimate.. they should test that in court.
no point in arguing the toss here and now when it hasn't even happened yet and this why I will stop talking and let you continue to keep arguing with yourself.

I am not even a member of Karmashares.. I was just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

LOL, this is joke, right? Do you realize, there is KarmaShares LLC US based company where Kosmost is CEO? Any income will be legal one, there will be taxes, bookkeeping and lawsuits as on any other company in USA. In case of selling lill.com, KarmaShares LLC will receive money as US based company. In case of paying shareholders EVERY shareholder has to be paid. This is the law and no gray shady scam rules apply. This is unique to KARM, everything is legal to make trusted non scam crypto coin community. So again, forget about shady operations, the rules and US & international law are on the first place. This is why I opened this problem, there is still time to solve it. If there will be payout to any KARM coin holder, exchanges have to be paid too.

From official text on karmashares.com:

omg you really should not be involved in crypto currency if your answer to every technical problem is based on a strict interpretation of US law.

I could go through all your points and cite many examples in the crypto world where US law either does not apply, does not adequately cover OR is not adequately enforced so if you want to argue the strict legalities of everything then you really are in the wrong place for that.

not just Karmashares but ALL crypto based securities and share profit arrangements and all crypto currencies fall under a legal grey area currently so pointing out the legal issues here seems moot and non constructive.

I was only talking from a technical perspective. Technically there are no significant problems as you describe them.. your issues are with US law and how it applies and since I am not a legal expert, I would say that those arguments are best left to the lawyers.
 

The problem here is one of ownership. Once you transfer your coins to your account at Cryptsy you have transferred ownership. Crypsty can then rightfully stake "your" coins and claim the benefits from them.

It is kind of like when you deposit money into your account. Once you do so it becomes the bank's money and the bank essentially just promises to pay it back (with additional backings, if had, by whatever authority provides insurance for the account).


I think the better analogy would be with a stock brokerage account ..
Typically the broker holds securities ( or coins with an ecosystem/income component )
in 'street name'; but they ( broker ) don't keep the dividends/income .. they credit the dividends to
the account holder .. I think that some people investing/speculating in crypto assume ( wrongly )
that crypto exchanges would function in a similar fashion and automatically credit the account holder
with any 'stake percent' or other 'income' that a particular coin may generate ..

Triff ..

Nope, I think you are missing the point.


There are rules, those rules are strict. There is fixed number of shares and coin holders will earn money in case ANY payout happens. Doesn't matter how you got that Share, you will get payout. You can't restrict payout to some shares and pay only some shareholders. It doesn't matter if that share was received by holding 1000 KARM, or by exchanging directly for shares. Those shares are equal in terms of payout. If Lill will be sold, that means, company gets more than 2 million USD, and it doesn't matter if shareholders get paid only 10%, or 100% that money makes company valuable either now or in future. So If that money will be reinvested and some future profits paid later, still those profits will go to exchanges holding others coins. In my opinion Exchanges own 20-30 billion KARM coins. It is 20-30 million shares. Right now there is 78,958,025 shares exchanged. So this means Exchanges will take around 20% of any payout.

WRONG, you can't restrict to pay shareholders. If there are rules like are now, than any COIN holder with 5 million KARM holding coins for 30 days gets right for any profit payout. It is not legal to pay only some of them just because you or anyone else decide they are not good enough to get revenue.  If you do that you will be sued on court.

You can't even prevent exchange to ask for payout technically, they own all the private keys, they are technically owning those wallets.

And even if you make it legal, to reject them, there is absolutely no way to say this wallet is owned by exchange and this is not. It is silly to think you can do that, if exchange wants to hide that, it is very easy to  do that.


Nope, this problem is theoretical if there are no money to be paid. It will be 100% real in case of any payout worth it. I opened this problem now, to prevent big problems in future.

Again wrong, this is not fixable, KarmaShares is company, legal one. It published some rules and those rules have to be according to US law. There is no way to break shareholders rights without being punished by court.



I am doing the best I can, I am explaining this is not fixable and no tracking algorithm will fix it. Nobody has right to tell, this with 99% probability exchange address, so we will not pay them, even if they have right for that. Just by denying the problem you will not fix it either.

I responded in bold.

Last call for the saving innocence fundraiser!
The fundraiser will close in 24hours. This call is for bitcoin only donations. The few satoshis you see on karmafund.me are mine for testing purposes. Nobody donated btc although some demanded them with quite an emphazise. So, give some satoshis to saving innocence:

www.karmafund.me

I think you are continually missing the point.

1) if any project was sold for 2.5 million dollars... most of that money would not go directly to Karmashares investors as a cash payout.. that would simply be a complete waste of money. there is not a company on earth that distributes all of the money from the sale of an asset to its shareholders.. not unless it was being wound up.

2) the profit sharing is controlled by karmashares.. if big amounts were going to be paid out to shareholders then its a very simple matter of due diligence to determine whether or not those shares are being held by an exchange before any money is paid out. very simple. just by looking at the Karma addresses you can tell which ones are likely used by exchanges and which are not. no need to verify email addresses no need to check ID. you can even ask your shareholders to claim their rewards by singing a transaction to prove they still control the address.


you seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill by creating theoretical problems that do not exist yet and could easily be fixed...

YES karmashares is not 100% exploit proof just like no exchange is 100% exploit proof. but is is fault tolerant.. meaning that if something goes wrong it can be fixed very easily.

if you are so worried about exchanges claiming Karmashares then do something about it.. you are a community member, you have block explorer.. I'm sure it wouldn't take you long to write an algorithm to determine which addresses are controlled by exchanges. ill give you a hint.. very simple transactional analysis should show you based on the number of inputs and outputs. Once you have the addresses of the exchanges its a very simple matter of suspending any karmashares linked to those addresses because they did not follow the rules.

we live in the age of the blockchain where all transactions are public. This is our greatest defence against fraud.

I would be interested. This might also rise awareness....

Yes, you give them ownership. But the original idea was to reward holders and KARM believers, not to pay exchanges. If exchanges will claim their profit, they will claim all their coins. Many people will not claim profit even they have right for that. So it is possible exchanges will get almost all the profit paid to coin holders, since many human holders will not claim.

Is anyone interested in a poll to see how many coins people keep on exchanges, and for how long they've been kept there? (this won't be entirely accurate of course, as some will answer falsely but should be an interesting indicator)

The problem here is one of ownership. Once you transfer your coins to your account at Cryptsy you have transferred ownership. Crypsty can then rightfully stake "your" coins and claim the benefits from them.

It is kind of like when you deposit money into your account. Once you do so it becomes the bank's money and the bank essentially just promises to pay it back (with additional backings, if had, by whatever authority provides insurance for the account).

This is an industry problem because of lack of centralization It sort of goes with the territory, and allows for all kinds of abuses from exchanges

You would be considered to also be owning a percentage of the LLC, through share points. Right now the minimum is 10 million coins, and 30+ days for holding for that quarter. (Holding only 30 days would be about 33% of the quarter's share of profits)

Hope this answers your question.

1. Cryptsy is well known for earning POS revenue on coins they not own. They are earning really lot of money on that. They stake them and most of them dump. There was even situation when they forced dev of coin to change from POW to POS. There is no reason to believe they will not take their opportunity to cash their KARM revenue. I am 100% sure every other exchange does the same.

2. The official KarmaShares conditions does not say anything like exchanges can't stake their coins. So if some coins holders are paid and some are not, those rejected can easily ask for payout by putting this issue on court. This will break the law.

3. There is no way how to detect cold storage wallets, number of transactions is low and there can be thousands of them. Screenshots will not help, it is very easy to import such wallet to windows official wallet on PC

4. There is nothing stoping exchange owner from using fake ID, or his personal ID, ID of a friend. We are talking about 30-50% of all KARM coins, it is naive to think exchanges will not CASH out, especially now, when their income is lower and lower month by month. In case of selling lill and payout, it will be hundreds of thousands of USD, it is such big money that they will for sure do anything to take their profit.  

I think this problem kills whole idea, lets disable karm payout and allow only karm to karmashares exchanging, otherwise we will cry later a lot.

I moved a large portion of my Karm from Mintpal to my qt-wallet a week ago. So if I hold them over 30 days, am I considered to have Karmashare? Do I have to move the rest of Karm from Mintpal? Asking your opinions. Thanks

screenshots.