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Topic: [announce] Namecoin - a distributed naming system based on Bitcoin - page 70. (Read 594476 times)

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Probably a little bit of a dumb question, .. But I was wondering why the domain names have to expire 12,000 blocks?
One of the biggest areas of future development and use case scenarios, seems to be that of the open transaction style issuance of stock, bond or for that matter any form of digital unique certificate and tracking of their ownership. At first glance this seems ideally suited to Namecoin, but obviously this breaks down if the certificate expires after a ~ 1year rather than being transferred indefinitely.

Another thing is that the namecoin blockchain could be used for coloured coin type applications just by using the regular TX features that are identical to bitcoin's, disregarding any of the namespace operations.

Also, automated renewal is not difficult for any serious application that is using the namecoin namespaces.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
The thing is permanent domain squatting would be possible with no chance of recovery. Also what if you lose a private key. If it expires you can get it back with a new key.
legendary
Activity: 1807
Merit: 1020

I compiled it in linux (the Makefile has the boost suffix for mingw unconditionally but other than that it compiled fine). I only had time to do a simple newaddress, tx to it, dumpprivkey, new wallet, importprivkey and this last step succeeds but doesn't import the key, at least not the right one.

I couldn't debug it further but if I had to guess I'd say it probably imports using the wrong address version.

will get it looked at.. thanks
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Probably a little bit of a dumb question, .. But I was wondering why the domain names have to expire 12,000 blocks?
One of the biggest areas of future development and use case scenarios, seems to be that of the open transaction style issuance of stock, bond or for that matter any form of digital unique certificate and tracking of their ownership. At first glance this seems ideally suited to Namecoin, but obviously this breaks down if the certificate expires after a ~ 1year rather than being transferred indefinitely.
To keep Namecoin lean and mean.
And there is no need for changing this system, atm.

The only technical things that happen after 36,000 blocks are:
(btw, meanwhile it's 36,000 blocks, not 12,000)
a) The "expiry" date turns negative.
b) Someone else now can issue a name_new on this name, but the old data is still visible to everyone. Try name_history.
c) If you name_update before anybody else does a name_new, the expiry field resets to 36,000.

So it is just a matter of a concensus on the meaning of "expired". For domain names it seems quite reasonable that the owner has to renew it after a certain period of time.
For other types of namecoin uses it might be sensible to just ignore the expiration date. You may set up your own bonds exchange, for instance, and the rule is "The blockchain's expiration date of our bonds is irrelevant. Only the first one who registered bond no. bo/ff1d80824444a0b792ca82 is the unique owner."
(where "ff1d80824444a0b792ca82" is the name)
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1019
Probably a little bit of a dumb question, .. But I was wondering why the domain names have to expire 12,000 blocks?
One of the biggest areas of future development and use case scenarios, seems to be that of the open transaction style issuance of stock, bond or for that matter any form of digital unique certificate and tracking of their ownership. At first glance this seems ideally suited to Namecoin, but obviously this breaks down if the certificate expires after a ~ 1year rather than being transferred indefinitely.
To keep Namecoin lean and mean.

It would be comfortable to be able to do a name_update for a name you don't have the privkeys for. I would expect that to be not realistic for the next release or any time soon, though.  Undecided
hero member
Activity: 544
Merit: 500
 Probably a little bit of a dumb question, .. But I was wondering why the domain names have to expire 12,000 blocks?
One of the biggest areas of future development and use case scenarios, seems to be that of the open transaction style issuance of stock, bond or for that matter any form of digital unique certificate and tracking of their ownership. At first glance this seems ideally suited to Namecoin, but obviously this breaks down if the certificate expires after a ~ 1year rather than being transferred indefinitely.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1001

I compiled it in linux (the Makefile has the boost suffix for mingw unconditionally but other than that it compiled fine). I only had time to do a simple newaddress, tx to it, dumpprivkey, new wallet, importprivkey and this last step succeeds but doesn't import the key, at least not the right one.

I couldn't debug it further but if I had to guess I'd say it probably imports using the wrong address version.

I have no idea why github decided that it shouldn't show me namecoin-qt remote as an option for a pull request, so here's the fix for the above problem:

https://github.com/nelisky/bitcoin/commit/95ca4f8dc800a203f65613afe5c9c79894d6c6a7
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1001

I compiled it in linux (the Makefile has the boost suffix for mingw unconditionally but other than that it compiled fine). I only had time to do a simple newaddress, tx to it, dumpprivkey, new wallet, importprivkey and this last step succeeds but doesn't import the key, at least not the right one.

I couldn't debug it further but if I had to guess I'd say it probably imports using the wrong address version.
legendary
Activity: 1807
Merit: 1020
I read the post with all the tx testing.. i can't say i fully understand it.. but did you check the changes to the latest bitcoin? (obviously may not fit in with namecoin)
It is a simulation of fees with new rules on current namecoind.

The new bitcoin release use this to BLOCK really small dust (on client side and relay side if i'm right) :
Code:
bool CTxOut::IsDust() const
{   
    // "Dust" is defined in terms of CTransaction::nMinRelayTxFee,
    // which has units satoshis-per-kilobyte.
    // If you'd pay more than 1/3 in fees
    // to spend something, then we consider it dust.
    // A typical txout is 33 bytes big, and will
    // need a CTxIn of at least 148 bytes to spend,
    // so dust is a txout less than 54 uBTC
    // (5430 satoshis) with default nMinRelayTxFee
    return ((nValue*1000)/(3*((int)GetSerializeSize(SER_DISK,0)+148)) < CTransaction::nMinRelayTxFee);

We could also integrate this into namecoin ?

will this effect your own proposals? (or this is just for really realy small dust?)


Updated Icon with White N
Included Namecoin Splash screen on startup

https://github.com/namecoin-qt/namecoin-qt
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/3aa8ukj7v6m5d/Namecoin-qt
hero member
Activity: 540
Merit: 500
I read the post with all the tx testing.. i can't say i fully understand it.. but did you check the changes to the latest bitcoin? (obviously may not fit in with namecoin)
It is a simulation of fees with new rules on current namecoind.

The new bitcoin release use this to BLOCK really small dust (on client side and relay side if i'm right) :
Code:
bool CTxOut::IsDust() const
{   
    // "Dust" is defined in terms of CTransaction::nMinRelayTxFee,
    // which has units satoshis-per-kilobyte.
    // If you'd pay more than 1/3 in fees
    // to spend something, then we consider it dust.
    // A typical txout is 33 bytes big, and will
    // need a CTxIn of at least 148 bytes to spend,
    // so dust is a txout less than 54 uBTC
    // (5430 satoshis) with default nMinRelayTxFee
    return ((nValue*1000)/(3*((int)GetSerializeSize(SER_DISK,0)+148)) < CTransaction::nMinRelayTxFee);

We could also integrate this into namecoin ?
hero member
Activity: 540
Merit: 500
Tried contacting vinced, nothing yet, trying to get a hold of any and all namecoin developers. There is an "alt currency" panel at the 2013 Bitcoin Conference in Amsterdam, Netherlands this September 27th~29th (http://theconference.eu). I am looking to see who would be able to attend and represent namecoin there. Who aside from vinced works on or has knowledge of the project enough to represent it?

Thanks!
Vinced has disappear a long time ago like Satoshi (it was his intent). I hope he would have replied to some of my messages, but it was not the case anymore quite shortly :p
I'm not a communicating guy, but, I'm not fully closed to the proposition.
Any other person interested ?

People able to speak about namecoin : at least phelix & midnightmagic, and surely others

[edit]: matching thread here : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-conference-europe-2013-209152 ?
Why need 2 different conferences ? Not possible to speak about several aspects (social & economic & etc) at the same conference ?
[/edit]
legendary
Activity: 1807
Merit: 1020
Added RPC commands: signmessage, verifymessage, listunspent, listaddressgrouping
Wow, a lot of work ! Need to be backported to namecoind too...
For info, last time I tested namecoin-qt, it was displaying the small starting window and then crash (but it compiles :p, debian 7, 64bits).
I'll update and test again.


ok thanks.. have not had any reports of crashing.. but let me know

you should be able to compile the namecoind


I read the post with all the tx testing.. i can't say i fully understand it.. but did you check the changes to the latest bitcoin? (obviously may not fit in with namecoin)
hero member
Activity: 540
Merit: 500
Added RPC commands: signmessage, verifymessage, listunspent, listaddressgrouping
Wow, a lot of work ! Need to be backported to namecoind too...
For info, last time I tested namecoin-qt, it was displaying the small starting window and then crash (but it compiles :p, debian 7, 64bits).
I'll update and test again.

For info to other people, I've done a quick review of all the code changes in namecoin-qt (about 2000 lines for qt without transalctions + changes to namecoind) up to 2 days ago and didn't see something suspicious.

Tx fees
@khal: You certainly have the most insight on the code and on what is possible/worth the effort and what is not. I like the XYZ size/input/output based tx fee, if I understand correctly today only size is considered?
Yes, size of tx for client and also size of the future block for miners.


The client should come with reasonable default fees as you suggest. Would it be possible to change these via the config file or only via compilation?
Currently, only by compiling it. But it can be added as command line options like in bitcoin.


Does the dust filter have an influence on relaying?
Yes, it is applied after that the free mechanism reduces fees to 0. However, not all miners may use it (old version of namecoind).
Fees on size are applied before the free mechanism, and it hinders me a bit.
If we agree that what is expensive for the network is data storage/signature checks, then, the fees applied on size/txOut should be after applied the free mechanism, like the dust one.
Current steps :
1. fees = size x baseFee
2. fees = 0 if (priority & size < 1k / block < 9k)
3. fees = + dust

I would like something like :
1. fess = baseFee
2. fees = 0 if (priority & size < 1k / block < 9k)
3. fees = size x baseFee
4. fees = + dust
5. fees = + split

I agree the relay base fee should be increased. Not sure about the change of the base tx fee - all in all is that a decrease in fees compared to what we run now?
Splitting is more expensive, dust less (due to reduced threshold) & more (due to 10x the fees), size less (due to reduced fees); standard tx less (due to reduced fees).
Im' not sure about reducing fees too, but we must plan things as if 1NMC = 10 x current value => 10$. Is the current fee value of 0.005 still adapted to this ?
[Edit: I didn't add fees for txIn on my previous post, maybe we could do it too for each txIn above 2, which would increase fees for those tx]


What about something more exotic like deriving the base tx fee / base relay fee from half the average of the lowest tx fee in the last 50 blocks? See https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1627011 (also length staggered name_op fees could be based on this!). Ok, it's more work but I like the idea  Grin
Indeed, more work...

Free txs
There is no way to force miners to include these, so I would prefer all MY txs to include fees by default. Also I don't see what the problem is to pay a tiny fee once every year.

Tx priority can be helpful should someone try to flood the network with txs so I would keep priority for miners that want to use it but have all txs pay normal fees by default. Hopefully this can simplify things, too.

The easier the fee system the better this works so it would sure be nice if there was a single base fee as khal suggests that can be adjusted.
Ok, so no change in priority/free mechanism for miners, but fees for everybody on the client side ? Keeping this part as it is already is the most simple choice :p
But as I propose to remove free tx for miners if size > 1k... I would like to let the choice for miners to include free tx, but only if txSize < 1k, and apply fees for size in other cases (even if the blockSize is mall).


Name op fees
IMHO it would be best if there were length staggered name op fees that would be network enforced and go to the miners (now or later does not matter). I guess it would be quite an effort, though.
If it is going to miners now, it may be more simple for users (nothing to do). In the other case, that would require to check for each name_tx if the name is expired and if the coins can be selected + force it to go to fees. Or add a name_refund/release rpc command.
Both choices (miner fees or locked funds until expirations) will need some effort.


Output size >! tx fee ?
Enforcing this would help making txs spendable thus reduce chainsize. It would also make name_ops a little more expensive. What is the point of all these dust tx?
What is currently considered as dust are txOut below 0.01NMC, which seems to be quite frequent in the chain (but still > 0.001NMC). Mining ? Gambling ?
I'm for a stacked fee system : each characteristic of a tx can require a small amount of fees that are added to each other => less way to cheat the system as a "bad" tx will fall in at least one case, while allowing standard tx to remain cheap.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1019
Tried contacting vinced, nothing yet, trying to get a hold of any and all namecoin developers. There is an "alt currency" panel at the 2013 Bitcoin Conference in Amsterdam, Netherlands this September 27th~29th (http://theconference.eu). I am looking to see who would be able to attend and represent namecoin there. Who aside from vinced works on or has knowledge of the project enough to represent it?

Thanks!

Any coin you can find somebody in his right mind to represent for is boring  Grin
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
Tried contacting vinced, nothing yet, trying to get a hold of any and all namecoin developers. There is an "alt currency" panel at the 2013 Bitcoin Conference in Amsterdam, Netherlands this September 27th~29th (http://theconference.eu). I am looking to see who would be able to attend and represent namecoin there. Who aside from vinced works on or has knowledge of the project enough to represent it?

Thanks!
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
Me too, namecoin means a lot to me.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I like namecoin a lot
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1019
recapping issues...

Hard fork
Consensus: hf is necessary. (increase value size too 9kb, increase relay fee, ...)

Tx fees
@khal: You certainly have the most insight on the code and on what is possible/worth the effort and what is not. I like the XYZ size/input/output based tx fee, if I understand correctly today only size is considered?

The client should come with reasonable default fees as you suggest. Would it be possible to change these via the config file or only via compilation?

Does the dust filter have an influence on relaying?

I agree the relay base fee should be increased. Not sure about the change of the base tx fee - all in all is that a decrease in fees compared to what we run now?

What about something more exotic like deriving the base tx fee / base relay fee from half the average of the lowest tx fee in the last 50 blocks? See https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1627011 (also length staggered name_op fees could be based on this!). Ok, it's more work but I like the idea  Grin

Free txs
There is no way to force miners to include these, so I would prefer all MY txs to include fees by default. Also I don't see what the problem is to pay a tiny fee once every year.

Tx priority can be helpful should someone try to flood the network with txs so I would keep priority for miners that want to use it but have all txs pay normal fees by default. Hopefully this can simplify things, too.

The easier the fee system the better this works so it would sure be nice if there was a single base fee as khal suggests that can be adjusted.

Name op fees
IMHO it would be best if there were length staggered name op fees that would be network enforced and go to the miners (now or later does not matter). I guess it would be quite an effort, though.

Output size >! tx fee ?
Enforcing this would help making txs spendable thus reduce chainsize. It would also make name_ops a little more expensive. What is the point of all these dust tx?

* khal will read those things about bindings and similar idea.
As I don't understand very well what it means :p
I think he meant locking of some NMC as in name_new until the name expires. In contrast to destroying / coinbasing.

Messaging system
Cool but may be too much for now. Also there is bitmessage already.
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