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Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 238. (Read 1276789 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
I shudder to think how much I have spend on btc transaction fees on failed sales of xcp for btc.  Order cancel themselves especially mysteriously or the btc holders are logged out so the do not pay...  Meh.

Yeah, I agree that this is a problem.  Pissing away satoshis on mysteriously failed orders doesn't feel good.  I realize that the amounts involved are small, but multiply by X and they get bigger.

They need to be more like the real exchanges in this area. (No fees for cancelled orders). Would encourage people to make more use of the CP exchange.

The problem as noted numerous times in this thread is that the BTC distributed exchanging is attempted to be conducted similar to exchanging assets (XCP <-> MPTSTOCK, etc.) which inevitably creates problems due to the nature of BTC being outside of native XCP assets.

If the developers would embrace the OPTION nature of a BTC transaction it would flow much more logically and smoothly. First transaction CREATES option to spend BTC for whatever there is. Second transaction EXECUTES the option. Obviously only the BTC holder holds the option but either party can create a possible option. so either of 3 steps for a full option creation/trade/execution:
a) asset holder creates/offers possible option (for BTC or XCP fee), BTC holder pays for/accepts/is granted option, BTC holder executes option.
b) BTC holder offers to buy asset option (escrows XCP fee), asset holder accepts fee/creates/grants option, BTC holder executes option.
Variables such as duration (before/after acceptance), fee, etc. are determined in first step. It will naturally lead to low fees for straight trading of BTC for assets.

This is how the current system works, of course. It's just called the same thing.



On another note, why hasn't there been distributed gambling based on native variables such as the block difficulty? actually block difficulty is purely random since no miner will withhold blocks since they are likely to not generate another before another miner does. i.e. no feed required, no trust required for feed provider, done natively by protocol. There could be tons of variables native to the protocol such as number of transactions in a given block, total assets transferred in a block, the hash of all new xcp addresses funded in a block or some combination to have more randomness. Almost purely random provided there is sufficient liquidity and would eliminate the need for a feed operator and entice the satoshi dice style gamblers. There could be a slight weighting for the majority win % since leverage is its own reward so 99% chance winner could get 2% profit while 1% chance winner only gets 500% profit (i.e. 50 units to 1 unit bet matching ratio but the 50 units gets 99% odds of winning all 51 while 1 units gets 1% odds to take all 51).

Two areas (of many previously noted) where counterparty protocol dropped the ball. Are there any competitors that got this right?

The only reliable source of entropy is the block hash (everything else miners can easily game), but we've come up with something even better than the system that you describe. Wink
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0

Thanks for the feeback. As I understand it, the NXT asset exchange was easier to use for three reasons:

1) Buying NXT could be done by sending BTC to an address.

2) There exists a website where you can easily see a list of existing assets.

3) The trades were completed quickly.

1) and 2) are not handled by the protocol, they are just external services that no one has yet set up for Counterparty. Moreover, I know that we have people that are currently working on them right now. With regard to 3), I can say that your trades with Counterparty would have been completed very quickly, too, if you used XCP, Counterparty's native currency, instead of BTC, to make your trades. Because of 1), Counterparty users are inclined to buy assets with BTC rather than XCP, which is much slower. Of course, NXT could never support trades with BTC.
NAS will trade with btc and nxt soon.
sr. member
Activity: 472
Merit: 250
Never spend your money before you have it.
I shudder to think how much I have spend on btc transaction fees on failed sales of xcp for btc.  Order cancel themselves especially mysteriously or the btc holders are logged out so the do not pay...  Meh.

Yeah, I agree that this is a problem.  Pissing away satoshis on mysteriously failed orders doesn't feel good.  I realize that the amounts involved are small, but multiply by X and they get bigger.

They need to be more like the real exchanges in this area. (No fees for cancelled orders). Would encourage people to make more use of the CP exchange.

The problem as noted numerous times in this thread is that the BTC distributed exchanging is attempted to be conducted similar to exchanging assets (XCP <-> MPTSTOCK, etc.) which inevitably creates problems due to the nature of BTC being outside of native XCP assets.

If the developers would embrace the OPTION nature of a BTC transaction it would flow much more logically and smoothly. First transaction CREATES option to spend BTC for whatever there is. Second transaction EXECUTES the option. Obviously only the BTC holder holds the option but either party can create a possible option. so either of 3 steps for a full option creation/trade/execution:
a) asset holder creates/offers possible option (for BTC or XCP fee), BTC holder pays for/accepts/is granted option, BTC holder executes option.
b) BTC holder offers to buy asset option (escrows XCP fee), asset holder accepts fee/creates/grants option, BTC holder executes option.
Variables such as duration (before/after acceptance), fee, etc. are determined in first step. It will naturally lead to low fees for straight trading of BTC for assets.

On another note, why hasn't there been distributed gambling based on native variables such as the block difficulty? actually block difficulty is purely random since no miner will withhold blocks since they are likely to not generate another before another miner does. i.e. no feed required, no trust required for feed provider, done natively by protocol. There could be tons of variables native to the protocol such as number of transactions in a given block, total assets transferred in a block, the hash of all new xcp addresses funded in a block or some combination to have more randomness. Almost purely random provided there is sufficient liquidity and would eliminate the need for a feed operator and entice the satoshi dice style gamblers. There could be a slight weighting for the majority win % since leverage is its own reward so 99% chance winner could get 2% profit while 1% chance winner only gets 500% profit (i.e. 50 units to 1 unit bet matching ratio but the 50 units gets 99% odds of winning all 51 while 1 units gets 1% odds to take all 51).

Two areas (of many previously noted) where counterparty protocol dropped the ball. Are there any competitors that got this right?
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500

The problem with editable odds is that they need to match exactly for a match to be made. The current implementation is logarithmic at 1/20 increments. I think maybe it would look cleaner as whole number fractions?

Yes, let me fix the redirect, thanks.  Smiley

Well thought out

Indeed, it would be better with 0.10 increments (bigger round increments after 2.00 odd, like 0.20 and round number after 5)

Also, I just realized that the odds are fractional, you should add a numerical odd display (Thus even odds 1/1 are quoted in decimal odds as 2)
full member
Activity: 214
Merit: 101

Excellent, testing right now

edit : ok when clicking on the "Create Bet" after filling all the fileds, nothing happens (chrome browser)

Sorry bout that, should be fixed.

Indeed, it's working.

You should let the odds field editable (and/or the return on win field), since the slider isn't really precise (eg. it goes from 2.86 to 3.33)

Then it creates a raw transaction that should be signed with "sign transaction" in couterwallet, right ? Your link when clicking on sign with counterwallet redirects to testnet counterwallet.

Great work !


The problem with editable odds is that they need to match exactly for a match to be made. The current implementation is logarithmic at 1/20 increments. I think maybe it would look cleaner as whole number fractions?

Yes, let me fix the redirect, thanks.  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500

Excellent, testing right now

edit : ok when clicking on the "Create Bet" after filling all the fileds, nothing happens (chrome browser)

Sorry bout that, should be fixed.

Indeed, it's working.

You should let the odds field editable (and/or the return on win field), since the slider isn't really precise (eg. it goes from 2.86 to 3.33)

Then it creates a raw transaction that should be signed with "sign transaction" in couterwallet, right ? Your link when clicking on sign with counterwallet redirects to testnet counterwallet.

Great work !
full member
Activity: 214
Merit: 101

Excellent, testing right now

edit : ok when clicking on the "Create Bet" after filling all the fileds, nothing happens (chrome browser)

Sorry bout that, should be fixed.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500

Excellent, testing right now

edit : ok when clicking on the "Create Bet" after filling all the fileds, nothing happens (chrome browser)
full member
Activity: 214
Merit: 101
member
Activity: 74
Merit: 10
XCP/BTC  market added on 51btc    more details: https://www.51btc.com    Smiley
hero member
Activity: 647
Merit: 510
Counterpartying
I agree that a rough time estimation may be better.
sr. member
Activity: 432
Merit: 250
Hi,
Looked at your video the trade time was measured by blocks !
Erm simplify > can you not use a clock / 24hrs ect  Smiley

No.  There is no bitcoin clock, only the bitcoin blockchain which has a variance that ranges from seconds between blocks to over an hour.   Lacking a clock, you have to count blocks.  It's not exact, but it's real and its decentralized.

Maybe something like "estimated time" may be possible, at least in days.. But I'm not even sure how accurate that would be.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 254
Editor-in-Chief of Let's Talk Bitcoin!
Hi,
Looked at your video the trade time was measured by blocks !
Erm simplify > can you not use a clock / 24hrs ect  Smiley

No.  There is no bitcoin clock, only the bitcoin blockchain which has a variance that ranges from seconds between blocks to over an hour.   Lacking a clock, you have to count blocks.  It's not exact, but it's real and its decentralized.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Hi,
Looked at your video the trade time was measured by blocks !
Erm simplify > can you not use a clock / 24hrs ect  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500

(4) Dust amounts on escrows accumulate. It would be good to view this amount under "My Account Balances" and redeem it by one click.


These specific points I want to strongly echo, 100% agree.

Yes, very good points. All of those problems now have GitHub Issues, and we'll fix them as soon as possible. Thanks!

An automatic integration of a coinsweeper-like function would be dope !
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
(2) The GUI for trading can be more intuitive. I know you are working on this, and I look forward to the update. Personally I like the GUI at bter.com. You can click on a price in the order book and it fills in the trade form automatically. Click on your balance and it fills out quantity. Buy and sell forms are side by side are on the same page. In counterwallet you could do the same, i.e. on the first page only select asset #1 and asset #2, but not specifying which ones to buy and sell.

(3) When an order matches, the user should immediately get a notice. E.g. "Order Matched. Pending Block Confirmation". Real time feedback is very important for most users.

(4) Dust amounts on escrows accumulate. It would be good to view this amount under "My Account Balances" and redeem it by one click.


These specific points I want to strongly echo, 100% agree.

Yes, very good points. All of those problems now have GitHub Issues, and we'll fix them as soon as possible. Thanks!
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 254
Editor-in-Chief of Let's Talk Bitcoin!
(2) The GUI for trading can be more intuitive. I know you are working on this, and I look forward to the update. Personally I like the GUI at bter.com. You can click on a price in the order book and it fills in the trade form automatically. Click on your balance and it fills out quantity. Buy and sell forms are side by side are on the same page. In counterwallet you could do the same, i.e. on the first page only select asset #1 and asset #2, but not specifying which ones to buy and sell.

(3) When an order matches, the user should immediately get a notice. E.g. "Order Matched. Pending Block Confirmation". Real time feedback is very important for most users.

(4) Dust amounts on escrows accumulate. It would be good to view this amount under "My Account Balances" and redeem it by one click.


These specific points I want to strongly echo, 100% agree.
member
Activity: 150
Merit: 29
Happy mother of 5 children
I'm really impressed by the Counterwallet. I'm big supporter of this project, and the developers are on the right track. But as with any beta software there are things that could improve. Here's a list of things that could be done, in my opinion:

(1) When users trade with BTC there should be a clear warning that it is still beta. Especially when you want to buy BTC at market rate there's a chance the other side won't be logged in, so you'll never receive the btcpay. This happened to me in the beginning, and I thought i had lost some XCP (thankfully, I didn't). When buying XCP for BTC it can be advised to use a decentralized exchange.

(2) The GUI for trading can be more intuitive. I know you are working on this, and I look forward to the update. Personally I like the GUI at bter.com. You can click on a price in the order book and it fills in the trade form automatically. Click on your balance and it fills out quantity. Buy and sell forms are side by side are on the same page. In counterwallet you could do the same, i.e. on the first page only select asset #1 and asset #2, but not specifying which ones to buy and sell.

(3) When an order matches, the user should immediately get a notice. E.g. "Order Matched. Pending Block Confirmation". Real time feedback is very important for most users.

(4) Dust amounts on escrows accumulate. It would be good to view this amount under "My Account Balances" and redeem it by one click.

(5) The passphrase can be tricky to enter for children, dyslectics, and non-native English speakers. Maybe there should be an option to display the characters when entering it? Personally I'd also like have the option to enter the passphrase in a more compact encoded format. This could be displayed under "Show option" (not on front page to avoid confusion) and have characters grouped ("10420e3b0" => "104 20e 3b0") to make it easier to type manually.

Other than that, I can just say that the Counterwallet is awesome. The system for betting is excellent.
sr. member
Activity: 432
Merit: 250
We are considering adding proof-of-stake voting to Counterparty. At a high level, how we see this working is where an issuer/owner of a given token could create a protocol-level 'referendum' event, which would most likely reference an external URL  (and could include a hash of that URL's content, to ensure consistency). The URL would point to a .json file with the referendum text, the voting end date, etc, as well as the possible choices (similar to how we do today with extended asset and feed info). Holders of the coin, via Counterwallet or similar, would then be able to vote on the referendum, and their vote would count in proportion to the amount of coin they hold out of the total amount created (or, in circulation). As these votes are done on-blockchain, they could then be easily tallied up, and there would be a clear audit trail for verifiability.

I'm thinking this feature would open Counterparty up to all sorts of interesting political applications, as well as faciliate organizational governance for companies that do crowdfunding on the platform.

Thoughts? If we can see enough interest in this feature, we can add it.


Yes, we need this. This is an important feature for peer-to-peer organizations, as well as multi-sig.
sr. member
Activity: 390
Merit: 254
Counterparty Developer
Wrt to exchange confusion,  we heard you guys.  We have a single page buy/sell page design proposed that should be a major improvement. Ouziel can begin work on this as soon as he is done fixing some urgent outstanding bugs in counterwallet.

This wont address the whole problem (specifically around challenges trading when btc is involved... We are looking at protocol level enhancements to improve that)
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