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Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 377. (Read 1276826 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
From the perspective of counterparty and the overall bitcoin community,
  • The criticism is not against counterparty, but just One Flaw in the system
  • There was zero consultation on the design with the wider community before the "on" switch was flipped
  • This flaw --network-critical database used for raw data storage-- was well known before Counterparty began life. You could have avoided this problem with communication.
  • Existing designs are known to be less abusive to the network, and do not store data in that key database

It is perfectly possible to run counterparty without this flaw.

It is perfectly possible to run Counterparty without storing data in the blockchain directly, yes. But there is no flaw in the possibility of doing so, and all the explanations that have been given for why it is 'abusive' or a 'problem' use circular logic. It's even misleading to call it 'raw data': it's not GIFs or tweets or anything like that---it's transaction data, just transaction data that Bitcoin itself doesn't parse.

We are adding (a great deal of) functionality to Bitcoin, and paying whatever fees miners ask for it. All of the outputs we are generating are spendable and prunable. We are doing our best to help Bitcoin (and users of Bitcoin), which has enormous potential beyond its current abilities.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
CabTrader v2 | crypto-folio.com
So can we hear anything from PP or XN on this ?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
From the perspective of counterparty and the overall bitcoin community,
  • The criticism is not against counterparty, but just One Flaw in the system
  • There was zero consultation on the design with the wider community before the "on" switch was flipped
  • This flaw --network-critical database used for raw data storage-- was well known before Counterparty began life. You could have avoided this problem with communication.
  • Existing designs are known to be less abusive to the network, and do not store data in that key database

It is perfectly possible to run counterparty without this flaw.



You are using the protocol as a bargaining tool, because you don't like what a project did. Do you see the problem with that?

All you are doing is making a decision for miners.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
From the perspective of counterparty and the overall bitcoin community,
  • The criticism is not against counterparty, but just One Flaw in the system
  • There was zero consultation on the design with the wider community before the "on" switch was flipped
  • This flaw --network-critical database used for raw data storage-- was well known before Counterparty began life. You could have avoided this problem with communication.
  • Existing designs are known to be less abusive to the network, and do not store data in that key database

It is perfectly possible to run counterparty without this flaw.



Thanks for the explanation.

I'm reading all these posts with a lot of interest but sometimes explaining things with simple terms is really useful for the vulgum pecus.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
Now, I am just a disinterested observer here (with investments in Bitcoin and all major 2.0 cryptos) so I don't speak for anybody but myself here; but it seems to me that Counterparty has Bitcoin over a barrel somewhat, especially with respect to the unspent outputs, which would be quite difficult to selectively block on the Bitcoin end.  It would quickly turn into a cat and mouse game.  Bitcoin could implement code to detect and block XCP transactions, but XCP changes a few parameters and re-launches a week later to get around it, which causes Bitcoin to respond, which causes a new change in XCP, etc. ad nauseum.  I don't think that anybody wants that.

No, it is trivial to block 100% of them.  A proposal to do just that appeared on the bitcoin-development mailing list yesterday from Peter Todd.  This proposed change would relay zero transactions with multisig outputs.

Most of the world is moving to P2SH for multisig, leaving the remaining "bare multisig" users mastercoin, counterparty, etc.



Isn't Peter Todd working on Mastercoin? Why would he propose that?

Think about it.  Mastercoin is a competitor to Counterparty.  Mastercoin is already aware of, and working on solving this storage-in-multisig problem.

Peter Todd's proposal simultaneously (a) benefits Mastercoin, (b) disadvantages Counterparty, and (c) presents a proposal that portions of the developer and mining community already find agreeable.


Edit: retracted, based on Peter's recent posting.

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
From the perspective of counterparty and the overall bitcoin community,
  • The criticism is not against counterparty, but just One Flaw in the system
  • There was zero consultation on the design with the wider community before the "on" switch was flipped
  • This flaw --network-critical database used for raw data storage-- was well known before Counterparty began life. You could have avoided this problem with communication.
  • Existing designs are known to be less abusive to the network, and do not store data in that key database

It is perfectly possible to run counterparty without this flaw.

legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
So this is what a currency free from the banks is supposed to be? A money supply determined by an even smaller autocracy? At least the Bank's do not Threaten their Clients.

Yep, its disgraceful
full member
Activity: 214
Merit: 101
So this is what a currency free from the banks is supposed to be? A money supply determined by an even smaller autocracy? At least the Bank's do not Threaten their Clients.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
CabTrader v2 | crypto-folio.com
guys calm down, everyone in the bitcoin universe know which role the core developers play and until now they did quite a good job - I think the developers of xcp are already in close contact to the core developers, let us see where this is going

They're talking about getting rid of multi sig.  I need a xanax.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
guys calm down, everyone in the bitcoin universe know which role the core developers play and until now they did quite a good job - I think the developers of xcp are already in close contact to the core developers, let us see where this is going
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
CabTrader v2 | crypto-folio.com


+1

I cant believe this attitude. I didnt know bitcoin had owners. I though I and about a million others were owners :-)

Phantom and CG- you saw the interactions. Please relate. I'd advise to still try to create a less public line of communications with the BTC team and if not.... continue even stronger.

The Bitcoin devs are throwing around scary terms like "abuse" "victim" and "free ride", when what it comes down to is that they are making a decision at the protocol level that miners can make for themselves.

It gives a serious "co-opting the voting rights of miners" kind of vibe. At least in rhetoric. These are the people working on the democratization of money? Why the hostility and uncooperativeness? What can we expect next? I had higher expectations.

Yep. Disappointed.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
CabTrader v2 | crypto-folio.com
So I guess Phantom is not satoshi. Panic?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10


+1

I cant believe this attitude. I didnt know bitcoin had owners. I though I and about a million others were owners :-)

Phantom and CG- you saw the interactions. Please relate. I'd advise to still try to create a less public line of communications with the BTC team and if not.... continue even stronger.

The Bitcoin devs are throwing around scary terms like "abuse" "victim" and "free ride", when what it comes down to is that they are making a decision at the protocol level that miners can make for themselves.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100


+1

I cant believe this attitude. I didnt know bitcoin had owners. I though I and about a million others were owners :-)

Phantom and CG- you saw the interactions. Please relate. I'd advise to still try to create a less public line of communications with the BTC team and if not.... continue even stronger.
sr. member
Activity: 602
Merit: 252
I don't care if I can use OP_RETURN on Bitcoin-QT 0.9.0. I only care if I upgrade my Bitcoin-QT to 0.9.0, can I still use the counterpartyd client?
sr. member
Activity: 421
Merit: 250
What does all this mean from the point of view of the CP team and community and what is the plan in the long run?
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Now, I am just a disinterested observer here (with investments in Bitcoin and all major 2.0 cryptos) so I don't speak for anybody but myself here; but it seems to me that Counterparty has Bitcoin over a barrel somewhat, especially with respect to the unspent outputs, which would be quite difficult to selectively block on the Bitcoin end.  It would quickly turn into a cat and mouse game.  Bitcoin could implement code to detect and block XCP transactions, but XCP changes a few parameters and re-launches a week later to get around it, which causes Bitcoin to respond, which causes a new change in XCP, etc. ad nauseum.  I don't think that anybody wants that.

No, it is trivial to block 100% of them.  A proposal to do just that appeared on the bitcoin-development mailing list yesterday from Peter Todd.  This proposed change would relay zero transactions with multisig outputs.

Most of the world is moving to P2SH for multisig, leaving the remaining "bare multisig" users mastercoin, counterparty, etc.



Hello Jeff - never got a response to my last post. Still wondering why the Bitcoin-QT client has bugs. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-does-the-bitcoin-qt-client-still-have-bugs-3-years-in-development-518482
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
So the question becomes: Should we let people store data in multisig transactions or provide a cleaner way to do it?

A less abusive way was already provided.

With OP_RETURN, the data is still in the blockchain, but at least it is not in the UTXO database of unspent outputs like Generation-1 mastercoin/counterparty designs.

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Maybe I'm wrong, but I am reading your words as follows: Miners will always decide their interests in what type of transactions they wish to mine. Currently, Counterparty uses multisig which are standard transactions. Although we do not wish to add to blockchain bloat, it would appear that as long as we are allowing miners to achieve their economic interests in mining all standard multisig transactions, then the system is working as it should.

Am I understanding your thoughts correctly?
Not exactly. Miners certainly have the ability to decide which transactions they do and don't include, but they have a duty to use that ability to protect the system from abuses.

40 bytes is more than sufficient for all legitimate needs for tying data to a transaction
To me the word "legitimate" is the main problem.
Who can claim the power to say: this data is legitimate and that another is not legitimate. This is called censorship!
The miners have that duty.

The question can not be: What data is legitimate to be stored in the blockchain?
Because this is a subjective question, and that no one can claim to have the answer.

The only question is: Should we allow the storage of data in the blockchain?
These are the same question.

And the answer is: there is no choice, because it is possible to do with multisig transaction.
Bare multisig transactions are not currently used. It's quite possible to turn them off without breaking anything that actually needs multisig-type use.
Furthermore, it's quite possible to determine what multisig usage is actual multisig and which are data store abuses.
So yes, there is a choice...

Too many people were getting the impression that OP_RETURN was a feature, meant to be used. It was never intended as such, only a way to "leave the windows unlocked so we don't need to replace the glass when someone breaks in". That is, to reduce the damage caused by people abusing Bitcoin.

That doesn't make sense to me.
On one hand you're introducing OP_RETURN to stop hackish and inefficient methods to store extra data in the blockchain (like using multisig outputs). On the other hand you reduce OP_RETURN to 40 bytes and say that it was never meant to be actually used – thus forcing people to continue using their hackish solutions.
"Reduce"? No. OP_RETURN was increased from 0 to 40 bytes.
And no, "don't abuse us with OP_RETURN" does not mean we are forcing you to abuse us in other ways.
If we lock the windows, we aren't forcing the burglar to break them. Stop trying to blame the victim.

Even if you are right in some of your assertions I think that viewing the CP project as a problem for BTC miners and for the BTC network as a whole is shortsighted for all reasons mentioned above. It is true that you guys have a key role and a responsibility for this growing economy and I can understand being conservative to an extent. Yet being a conservative should not be a religious policy and things should be judged by their context and without pre-conceived hostility. ONLY because the success of the CP MSC and other such projects ARE success to human beings in general AND to the crypto space in particular. you probably know why better than me. Words like victim, parasites, and acting against the will of (I dont know who)- is not right nor positive.

work with BTC 2nd generation teams to help them see what bothers you and your team but support the initiative. it is for the best of all. the more such tools will come the better.

I have a small percentage of my overall BTC holdings here but my main investment is and will be BTC for the foreseeable future so I am not writing "from position" but rather from what I feel is the importance of such projects to the BTC penetration.

 
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