[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 551.

jimhsu

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Quote from: kdrop22 on February 04, 2014, 08:17:01 PM

Quote from: qwertyasdfgh on February 04, 2014, 08:13:47 PM

Quote from: PhantomPhreak on February 04, 2014, 06:55:17 PM

Watch out: there's a fatal bug in develop triggered in block 284193 with the error message: 'assert asset != 'BTC' # Never BTC.'. I just pushed a hotfix to GitHub.

I got the error on the master branch. It still doesn't work for me with the latest github.

Yeah, mine does the same as well.

When I do a
"git pull origin master"
I get an update saying 'Already upto date'.
Maybe that is probably why.

Switch to develop or manually apply this fix to cancel.py:

https://forums.counterparty.co/index.php/topic,22.msg163.html#msg163

If not technically inclined, just wait it out a few days.

kdrop22

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Quote from: qwertyasdfgh on February 04, 2014, 08:13:47 PM

Quote from: PhantomPhreak on February 04, 2014, 06:55:17 PM

Watch out: there's a fatal bug in develop triggered in block 284193 with the error message: 'assert asset != 'BTC' # Never BTC.'. I just pushed a hotfix to GitHub.

I got the error on the master branch. It still doesn't work for me with the latest github.

Yeah, mine does the same as well.

When I do a
"git pull origin master"
I get an update saying 'Already upto date'.
Maybe that is probably why.

qwertyasdfgh

newbie

Activity: 36

Merit: 0

Quote from: PhantomPhreak on February 04, 2014, 06:55:17 PM

Watch out: there's a fatal bug in develop triggered in block 284193 with the error message: 'assert asset != 'BTC' # Never BTC.'. I just pushed a hotfix to GitHub.

I got the error on the master branch. It still doesn't work for me with the latest github.

jimhsu

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 264

Quote from: Vitalik Buterin on February 04, 2014, 07:30:32 PM

Quote from: trilli0n on February 04, 2014, 06:43:16 PM

This is an interesting concept but I don't expect widespread adoption of XCP.

First of all, its use is very limited. I don't think it will win over a single professional trader ever. In this time and age of HFT (high frequency trading) in most markets, especially the very liquid ones, where latencies are counted by the microseconds, the pace of 1 block per 10 minutes is not really going to cut it. This alone already rules out liquid markets like FX, MM, rates equities and commodities, where 99.999% of the trades are. Low Lack liquidity in XCP will translate to huge spreads and slippage from hell, making it unprofitable to trade through XCP, which in turn hurts liquidity. You can't break that vicious circle unless you can compete with the lightning speed and market depth at the exchanges. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening. And oh, the exchange fees in these very liquid markets are negligible, especially for high volumes, so no advantage for XCP there either.

Mind you I'm not dismissing XCP, it's fantastic technology and it will have many novel applications. But I just don't think it's going to have the same level of impact as bitcoin, which was truly a paradigm shift.

I hope I'm proven wrong though!

Blockchain-based technologies in general, whether BTC, MSC, XCP or Ethereum, will not be used for HFT. The scalability is simply not there for that. OpenTransactions servers, on the other hand, are excellent for HFT. Blockchains are for higher-value transactions and settlement.

Thanks for your input Vitalik. Speaking from the Wall Street perspective, not all exchanges out there are even suitable for high frequency trading (witness the recent rise of electronic exchanges - ARCA, BATS, etc). Not all participants are interested in "low-quality" liquidity so to speak, as provided by most high-frequency exchanges (which was one of the indirect causes of the infamous 2010 Flash Crash). Not all assets need to be traded on a real-time basis (real estate [which has many analogies with BTC], bonds, and mutual funds for instance). It's not also widely appreciated that official settlement for stock trades occurs not instantaneously, but 3 days (the T+3 rule). In contrast, 1 hour (6 confirmations) is widely acknowledged to be a reasonable settlement time for even the largest BTC trades.

The blockchain more closely resembles, say, the housing market or the contracts/swaps derivatives markets, which don't operate in any way similar to HFT even though they handle trillions of dollars in notional value. So the notion that non-highly liquid markets can't be valuable is absurd.

jl777

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Quote from: Vitalik Buterin on February 04, 2014, 07:30:32 PM

Quote from: trilli0n on February 04, 2014, 06:43:16 PM

This is an interesting concept but I don't expect widespread adoption of XCP.

First of all, its use is very limited. I don't think it will win over a single professional trader ever. In this time and age of HFT (high frequency trading) in most markets, especially the very liquid ones, where latencies are counted by the microseconds, the pace of 1 block per 10 minutes is not really going to cut it. This alone already rules out liquid markets like FX, MM, rates equities and commodities, where 99.999% of the trades are. Low Lack liquidity in XCP will translate to huge spreads and slippage from hell, making it unprofitable to trade through XCP, which in turn hurts liquidity. You can't break that vicious circle unless you can compete with the lightning speed and market depth at the exchanges. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening. And oh, the exchange fees in these very liquid markets are negligible, especially for high volumes, so no advantage for XCP there either.

Mind you I'm not dismissing XCP, it's fantastic technology and it will have many novel applications. But I just don't think it's going to have the same level of impact as bitcoin, which was truly a paradigm shift.

I hope I'm proven wrong though!

Blockchain-based technologies in general, whether BTC, MSC, XCP or Ethereum, will not be used for HFT. The scalability is simply not there for that. OpenTransactions servers, on the other hand, are excellent for HFT. Blockchains are for higher-value transactions and settlement.

There is also some sentiment that maybe the value of all the things being traded at millisecond intervals is actually not changing so fast. The change in prices just being created by all the HFT interacting with each other.

So, a slower pace might not be such a bad idea. Put best bids/asks in and it gets settled every ten minutes (or minute for some blockchains)

James

Vitalik Buterin

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Quote from: trilli0n on February 04, 2014, 06:43:16 PM

This is an interesting concept but I don't expect widespread adoption of XCP.

First of all, its use is very limited. I don't think it will win over a single professional trader ever. In this time and age of HFT (high frequency trading) in most markets, especially the very liquid ones, where latencies are counted by the microseconds, the pace of 1 block per 10 minutes is not really going to cut it. This alone already rules out liquid markets like FX, MM, rates equities and commodities, where 99.999% of the trades are. Low Lack liquidity in XCP will translate to huge spreads and slippage from hell, making it unprofitable to trade through XCP, which in turn hurts liquidity. You can't break that vicious circle unless you can compete with the lightning speed and market depth at the exchanges. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening. And oh, the exchange fees in these very liquid markets are negligible, especially for high volumes, so no advantage for XCP there either.

Mind you I'm not dismissing XCP, it's fantastic technology and it will have many novel applications. But I just don't think it's going to have the same level of impact as bitcoin, which was truly a paradigm shift.

I hope I'm proven wrong though!

Blockchain-based technologies in general, whether BTC, MSC, XCP or Ethereum, will not be used for HFT. The scalability is simply not there for that. OpenTransactions servers, on the other hand, are excellent for HFT. Blockchains are for higher-value transactions and settlement.

freedomfighter

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Quote from: trilli0n on February 04, 2014, 06:43:16 PM

This is an interesting concept but I don't expect widespread adoption of XCP.

First of all, its use is very limited. I don't think it will win over a single professional trader ever. In this time and age of HFT (high frequency trading) in most markets, especially the very liquid ones, where latencies are counted by the microseconds, the pace of 1 block per 10 minutes is not really going to cut it. This alone already rules out liquid markets like FX, MM, rates equities and commodities, where 99.999% of the trades are. Low Lack liquidity in XCP will translate to huge spreads and slippage from hell, making it unprofitable to trade through XCP, which in turn hurts liquidity. You can't break that vicious circle unless you can compete with the lightning speed and market depth at the exchanges. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening. And oh, the exchange fees in these very liquid markets are negligible, especially for high volumes, so no advantage for XCP there either.

Mind you I'm not dismissing XCP, it's fantastic technology and it will have many novel applications. But I just don't think it's going to have the same level of impact as bitcoin, which was truly a paradigm shift.

I hope I'm proven wrong though!

The assumption seems wrong: this is NOT competing with lighting quick forex and stock trades but rather allows for various p2p scenarios or DA-X financial and trade scenarios . It opens up a whole new decentralized world of not only currency to currency p2p exchange but any form of trade not dependent on speed. in fact, not being ONLY a currency- this opens up further usages and markets that are not possible with JUST a currency.

As far as the liquidity circle: NOT right- with enough volume the denominations would be 0.0000 etc just like BTC. With REAL 10 or 12 digit annual volume, and just like BTC it doesnt really matter if the starting point is 12M, 40M or 2.6M.

PhantomPhreak

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Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder

Watch out: there's a fatal bug in develop triggered in block 284193 with the error message: 'assert asset != 'BTC' # Never BTC.'. I just pushed a hotfix to GitHub.

trilli0n

newbie

Activity: 48

Merit: 0

This is an interesting concept but I don't expect widespread adoption of XCP.

First of all, its use is very limited. I don't think it will win over a single professional trader ever. In this time and age of HFT (high frequency trading) in most markets, especially the very liquid ones, where latencies are counted by the microseconds, the pace of 1 block per 10 minutes is not really going to cut it. This alone already rules out liquid markets like FX, MM, rates equities and commodities, where 99.999% of the trades are. Low Lack liquidity in XCP will translate to huge spreads and slippage from hell, making it unprofitable to trade through XCP, which in turn hurts liquidity. You can't break that vicious circle unless you can compete with the lightning speed and market depth at the exchanges. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening. And oh, the exchange fees in these very liquid markets are negligible, especially for high volumes, so no advantage for XCP there either.

Mind you I'm not dismissing XCP, it's fantastic technology and it will have many novel applications. But I just don't think it's going to have the same level of impact as bitcoin, which was truly a paradigm shift.

I hope I'm proven wrong though!

jimhsu

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Activity: 364

Merit: 264

Quote from: ddink7 on February 04, 2014, 05:24:23 PM

FYI, I've contacted Bitcoin Magazine to let them know about the project. They seem to be interested in looking into it!

Quote

Ruben Alexander
4:09 PM (13 minutes ago)

to me
I kinda missed the boat on this and I normally like to be involved early on. I see that your gui will be released on valentines day. Is there an early build (even cli is fine) I can play with?

David [email address redacted]
4:22 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Ruben
Sure! Link included below. FYI I'm just an enthusiast and not "in charge" in any way. Here is a link to the thread on Bitcointalk. The first post is very informative with instructions etc.

Thanks for your response!!

Counterparty is a protocol for the creation and use of decentralised financial instruments using Bitcoin as a transport layer. It has an open-source and MIT-licensed reference implementation, counterpartyd, which is available for download/perusal at https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/counterpartyd/. The protocol specification is hosted athttps://github.com/PhantomPhreak/Counterparty. Pull requests are welcome!

Great, mention that the (CLI) client is fully functional, blockscan.com (a truly invaluable resource), and forums are available for installation/troubleshooting.

jl777

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Quote from: Alias on February 04, 2014, 08:39:29 AM

Quote from: BitThink on February 04, 2014, 07:18:58 AM

Very interesting. Could be very useful for average users.
Just one question now, how about there's a reorganization after a checkpoint is setup? There has to be a scheme to invalidate the checkpoint in a short time. Maybe associate the checkpoint with the block hash.

Do you mean that you can only "unlock" the checkpoint with the actual latest block hash? Interesting.

Could I suggest a very crude "solution" - the checkpoint doesn't necessarily need to be the very latest snapshot of the Counterparty system. If the checkpoint was always at least even 1 hour old (6-ish blocks ago) the likelihood of a reorganization affecting blocks that far back would be incredibly low.

Also, since the Counterparty Checkpoint DAC runs across multiple machines and a block-chain reorganization is a local client occurrence, the DAC could actually determine when your bitcoind requires a reorganization and postpone the rolling out of the checkpoint.

Even if it is a day old, we avoid 17 hours. 17 hours is a LONG time

jl777

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Quote from: BitThink on February 04, 2014, 04:23:37 AM

Quote from: jl777 on February 04, 2014, 04:05:02 AM

Quote from: BitThink on February 04, 2014, 03:50:41 AM

Quote from: jl777 on February 04, 2014, 03:46:34 AM

Quote from: BitThink on February 04, 2014, 03:39:49 AM

Quote from: halfcab123 on February 04, 2014, 02:44:35 AM

Can @phantomphreak please address the claims made by ethereum founder in bitcoin magazine?

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/9671/ethereum-next-generation-cryptocurrency-decentralized-application-platform/

It seems he thinks among many things that bitcoin is not suitable to be treated as an underlying base protocol.

One of the main reasons:

Simplified Payment Verification (see the bitcoin whitepaper Section 8 ) becomes not usable. Since the miner will not verify whether a XCP transaction is valid like they do in bitcoin transactions, to check the validity of a XCP transaction, we have to track up to the very beginning (the address sent to burn address). This requires each client to download and keep the whole blockchain.

In Ethereum, they seems to find a way to solve this problem.

Detail can be found in their whitepaper: http://www.ethereum.org/ethereum.html

Personally, I don't think this is something will make Mastercoin/XCP not usable. It just increases the downloading and parsing time.

Would it be possible to have a checkpoint file that is signed by the XCP devs that clients could load instead of the entire blockchain?
For ease of use, this is almost a requirement as few normal people will wait for hours and hours for the initial sync up

It's possible, but it will not be decentralized if there's a checkpoint. People has to trust the one who publish the checkpoint. However, I think it could be very useful to provide some trustworthy services keeping some snapshots, therefore most average users can choose to trust these services and shortcut their parsing and verification. Those trustworthy services cannot cheat others for a long time as long as there're some independent clients choose to verify transactions all by themselves.

Could the network provide feedback on any checkpointed file to make sure it is valid? Presumably there will always be counterpartyd's that parsed the full blockchain, so before any checkpoint file is trusted locally and used, it could make sure it is valid by checking with the overall network.

Assuming it is published on counterparty.co, matches sig, odds are very good it is valid, plus it is only for initial install. So, after quick install, check with network to make sure nobody goofed when uploading the checkpoint file. If it all checks out, then BAM! we saved 17 hours of blockchain sync time without any risk

James

The problem is that even if we use a checkpoint, the size of a checkpoint file for counterparty will be much larger than a checkpoint of BTC. A checkpoint of BTC is just the hash of current block, but a checkpoint of counterparty has to snapshot the balance of each address and the status of each order, bid, broadcast etc.

Confused. Doesnt it take something like 17 hours on initial install now? How long can it take to download 1 gig?

ddink7

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FYI, I've contacted Bitcoin Magazine to let them know about the project. They seem to be interested in looking into it!

Quote

Ruben Alexander
4:09 PM (13 minutes ago)

to me
I kinda missed the boat on this and I normally like to be involved early on. I see that your gui will be released on valentines day. Is there an early build (even cli is fine) I can play with?

David [email address redacted]
4:22 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Ruben
Sure! Link included below. FYI I'm just an enthusiast and not "in charge" in any way. Here is a link to the thread on Bitcointalk. The first post is very informative with instructions etc.

Thanks for your response!!

Counterparty is a protocol for the creation and use of decentralised financial instruments using Bitcoin as a transport layer. It has an open-source and MIT-licensed reference implementation, counterpartyd, which is available for download/perusal at https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/counterpartyd/. The protocol specification is hosted athttps://github.com/PhantomPhreak/Counterparty. Pull requests are welcome!

led_lcd

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Quote from: cryptrol on February 04, 2014, 04:18:07 PM

There appears to be some scam artists among the mastercoin team.

They might be Counterparty investors too.

cryptrol

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Quote from: cityglut on February 04, 2014, 04:11:00 PM

The reddit page registered by the Counterparty Team is reddit.com/r/counterparty_xcp

Important clarification:reddit.com/r/counterparty was not registered by the Counterparty team; it was registered by prophetx, who is the communications lead for Mastercoin; reddit.com/r/xcp was also not reigstered by the Counterparty team, and both of its moderators appear to be associated with Mastercoin, as well.

There appears to be some scam artists among the mastercoin team.

SyRenity

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Quote from: cityglut on February 04, 2014, 04:11:00 PM

The reddit page registered by the Counterparty Team is reddit.com/r/counterparty_xcp

Important clarification:reddit.com/r/counterparty was not registered by the Counterparty team; it was registered by prophetx, who is the communications lead for Mastercoin; reddit.com/r/xcp was also not reigstered by the Counterparty team, and both of its moderators appear to be associated with Mastercoin, as well.

I have this one registered and can turn it over:
http://www.reddit.com/r/XCPCounterparty/

cityglut

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The reddit page registered by the Counterparty Team is reddit.com/r/counterparty_xcp

Important clarification:reddit.com/r/counterparty was not registered by the Counterparty team; it was registered by prophetx, who is the communications lead for Mastercoin; reddit.com/r/xcp was also not reigstered by the Counterparty team, and both of its moderators appear to be associated with Mastercoin, as well.

hoolio

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Can somebody explain how to make a valid asset?

PhantomPhreak

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Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder

Quote from: romerun on February 04, 2014, 02:07:45 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: physalis on February 04, 2014, 01:22:04 PM

Can somebody explain to me what we need these XCP for?

The way I understand it, they're converted BTC->XCP with a factor of 1k-1.5k. And now what? What are they for?

I see the value of counterparty as a protocol, decentralized exchange etc.
But I can make an offer on the market like GIVE 1 BTC; GET 1 WEED or whatever.
I don't see why there's need for another currency in all this. Except for the obvious pump and dump that's going on here of course.

I wondered about that aswell. As far as I understand it, the XCPs are needed to provide an escrow, which is not possible for BTC inside the counterparty protocol. But you could easily do the same with BTCs, right? Is this the concept of colored coins but with another currency that uses the BTC network? Or is there more to it?

I've been searching for such answer since MSC, "why is it needed". We convert fiat to bitcoin coupon to remove frictions, then somebody tells us that if we want to buy weed, we have to buy XCP coupon to remove another btc friction. I believe that another layer coupon is not needed for dex, as we could already embed information on the blockchain directly, but for some more sophisticate features it could be necessary or at least makes thing easier to implement.

Moving to XCP removes frictions, too, specifically those relating to the need for atomic transactions and protocol-enforced escrow.

xnova

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Counterparty Developer

Quote from: StarenseN on February 04, 2014, 11:40:41 AM

Quote from: StarenseN on February 04, 2014, 10:54:18 AM

Hello,

I've build my own installer (Windows) from git source up-to-date.
BitcoinQT is launched and up-to-date

Then when I want to launch the counterpartyd.exe, I have this error:

Code:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python32\lib\site-packages\cx_Freeze\initscripts\Console3.py", line 2
7, in 
    exec(code, m.__dict__)
  File "C:\counterpartyd_build\dist\counterpartyd\counterpartyd.py", line 22, in
 
    from lib import (config, api, zeromq, util, exceptions, bitcoin, blocks)
  File "C:\counterpartyd_build\dist\counterpartyd\lib\zeromq.py", line 14, in odule>
    import zmq
  File "C:\Python32\lib\site-packages\zmq\__init__.py", line 29, in 
    from zmq import core, devices
  File "C:\Python32\lib\site-packages\zmq\core\__init__.py", line 26, in >
    from zmq.core import (constants, error, message, context,
  File "ExtensionLoader_zmq_core_error.py", line 22, in 
  File "ExtensionLoader_zmq_core_error.py", line 14, in __bootstrap__
ImportError: DLL load failed: Module not found

Can someone help ?

Does exist a better step by step Counterparty on windows installation ?

This is showing the same error after reinstalling by following the doc here:
- http://counterpartyd-build.readthedocs.org/en/latest/BuildingFromSource.html#on-windows

Building a the windows installer off of master is currently broken due to the zeromq (zmq) dependency. I had initially fixed this error above in develop, but the issue goes further with zmq, and since we just removed zmq totally out of develop, there's no real reason to spend hours trying to fix zmq installer packaging for windows.

You can build an installer from the develop branch, but the develop branch is currently in-flux as we add some new features required for the web wallet API and we cannot promise the same stability as the master branch.

So the fix is to build master from source. I do not recommend using the Windows installers at this time. For the reasons listed above, and at in the warning message at http://counterpartyd-build.readthedocs.org/en/latest/UsingTheInstaller.html

Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 551. (Read 1276981 times)