Author

Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 595. (Read 1276933 times)

sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
Quote
When we look back at all the electricity we've wasted on bitcoins PoW concept to "secure the blockchain" as you put it, I think we will be a little disappointed at how wasteful and naive we were.

To that, I simply quote:

Quote from: Warren Buffett
“Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head.”

Take what you will. (I'm not taking sides, BTW).
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1010
he who has the gold makes the rules
I hate to say this after the fact, but proof of burn is a really, really, really stupid, inefficient and unproductive concept.
There are much better ways to handle proof of stake.
That money could have fed a whole village in africa for a year.
I would much rather the devs got that 1,400 BTC than it just being destroyed pointlessly.

Of course, I've said this after the fact.

In the same way, many still claim proof of work (as done by Bitcoin) as a "needlessly wasteful expenditure of computing resources". Neither is true. Proof of work, as done for bitcoin and other currencies, is done to secure the blockchain. Proof of burn, as done here, is done to produce a permanent record for fair distribution of an asset that you can't get by sending the "otherwise burnt" BTCs to the devs, to the nearest charity, or whomever.

Next, people are going to come out and claim that the 10000 BTC pizza was "a pointless idea". Just like in that example, a price was set for something that otherwise had no perceived value.

Think of the 1400 BTC burned as assets to purchase XCP "mining rigs" that produced however many coins you have now. (In fact, the bitcoin.it proof of burn page gives this very description). That is the value of proof of burn.

That said, donating to the devs (or better yet, contributing to the project by testing, writing articles, designing sites, etc. ) is a great idea. We can launch publicity campaigns and such after the burn period and after stuff like a centralized exchange and an online client are up and running.
I think it is a logical fallacy to assume that proof-of-burn is the only method of securing a permanent record of fair distribution.

Let me suggest this hypothetical:
I could contact a donation agent at the WWF or Red cross and say, "I want to donate somewhere between $100,000-$1,000,000 to your organization in the form of bitcoin. All you have to do is post an address on your website where you would like to receive the bitcoins."
They could post a news article on their website with the intended address, then a system could be set up to watch and distribute XCP based on the coins sent to that address, much in the same way we are doing now.

In this hypothetical situation, we know that I nor anyone but the charity controls the bitcoin address.

In another hypothetical:

A small amount could be shaved off the XCP amount before being dispensed to the recipients. I send 1 BTC to an address. I am awarded 1000 XCP minus 2-3% which is award to the dev accounts (I get 980, they get 20).

This would be an autodonation, but we know that they couldn't run off with my BTC, they would actually need to develop XCP into something valuable to profit from my BTC.

One of the largest problems with cryptocurrencies I find is that they are developed by programmers, not economists or necessarily freedom fighters. Most developers are focused on making the code work and not developing a fairer or more efficient system. If you're not a programmer, fat chance at getting anyone to listen to your great ideas or join your cause.

When we look back at all the electricity we've wasted on bitcoins PoW concept to "secure the blockchain" as you put it, I think we will be a little disappointed at how wasteful and naive we were.


I had the same issue but I realized that they are correct in needing a completely trustless method for how Counterparty is different than Mastercoin, and the charity method is not trustless.

Also the coins are not wasted their value is simply spread across the system.  Regarding electricity, this is the only way to secure the blockchain, so it has a utilitarian value.  Otherwise if you follow this type of logic, we should all be living in caves.  Which might be fun until you realize there is no hot shower.

There is a lot of good stuff written on these subject matters over the years, I suggest you look for and read why PoW is used.

It remains to be seen whether it is better to have a sustainable funding mechanism for an open source initiative, like Mastercoin, or a completely unfunded operation that relies on volunteerism perhaps tied to corporate initiatives.

To think about it further, if I were an executive at Paypal or Google and I decided that I wanted to release coupons or whatever on Bitcoin would I choose something like Counterparty or Mastercoin?    

We have already seen that large corporations, true to innovation adoption research lit, do not mess with new stuff that has no value attached to it. Unless they are irrational. Thus players like Google or Paypal, if they are rational, will want to deal with token systems that have enough liquidity and users, as otherwise the investment capital is too high for them given risk and there is barely any research done on how to successful do corporate venture capital with open source initiatives like this with hidden members.

However having said that once a system reaches a certain state of liquidity and users then the corporate manager will naturally want to adopt it to maximize shareholder profits.  Having a choice between a foundation based approach which they can donate to and is somewhat organized in a structure that he/she is used to, or a loose collective of unidentifiable actors, the corporate manager is more likely to adopt the former rather than the latter.

But perhaps that is the role of Counterparty in the ecosystem for the wild things.  Just like in the old days (1800s) there was the NYSE and then there was the curb side traders (which became the AmEx).

I don't myself believe in monopolies, and I think there might be several systems in place competing for users.  However, projects like Ethereum, NXT and Bitshares, while perhaps having good intentions are going to have a hard time as they lack the liquidity and network that comes with Bitcoin.  That is a big deal.

But who knows. No one has a crystal ball.
sr. member
Activity: 262
Merit: 250
I think it is a logical fallacy to assume that proof-of-burn is the only method of securing a permanent record of fair distribution.

Let me suggest this hypothetical:
I could contact a donation agent at the WWF or Red cross and say, "I want to donate somewhere between $100,000-$1,000,000 to your organization in the form of bitcoin. All you have to do is post an address on your website where you would like to receive the bitcoins."
They could post a news article on their website with the intended address, then a system could be set up to watch and distribute XCP based on the coins sent to that address, much in the same way we are doing now.

In this hypothetical situation, we know that I nor anyone but the charity controls the bitcoin address.

In another hypothetical:

A small amount could be shaved off the XCP amount before being dispensed to the recipients. I send 1 BTC to an address. I am awarded 1000 XCP minus 2-3% which is award to the dev accounts (I get 980, they get 20).

This would be an autodonation, but we know that they couldn't run off with my BTC, they would actually need to develop XCP into something valuable to profit from my BTC.

One of the largest problems with cryptocurrencies I find is that they are developed by programmers, not economists or necessarily freedom fighters. Most developers are focused on making the code work and not developing a fairer or more efficient system. If you're not a programmer, fat chance at getting anyone to listen to your great ideas or join your cause.

When we look back at all the electricity we've wasted on bitcoins PoW concept to "secure the blockchain" as you put it, I think we will be a little disappointed at how wasteful and naive we were.

I don't think proof of burn is attempting to address fair distribution. It is one means of addressing trust or lack of trust.

I do like the idea regarding donations. 'Proof of Donation' sounds pretty neat don't you think?

Autodonation is a nice idea but not much different to what people call 'pre-mining'.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
Moreover, it's arguable whether giving Devs 1500 BTC is better for the incentive. If I were the dev and got 1500 BTC, I could be quite lazy and tends to enjoy the life instead of coding around the clock.

Therefore, it has to be a foundation manage the 1500 BTC transparently for bounties. In that case, centralization may lead to corruption, and community are reluctant to contribute and only paid coders work for money. Look at the progress of Mastercoin.

Imho despite all NXT IPO shortcomings, we should learn how they, being very interested stakeholders, sponsor together initiatives purely in NXT. They understand that NXT is worth so much only if the development and promotion are kept being pushed.

Actually BitThink, perhaps you can share some of the insider tips of how they are doing it so successfully Wink?
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
A small amount could be shaved off the XCP amount before being dispensed to the recipients. I send 1 BTC to an address. I am awarded 1000 XCP minus 2-3% which is award to the dev accounts (I get 980, they get 20).

This would be an autodonation, but we know that they couldn't run off with my BTC, they would actually need to develop XCP into something valuable to profit from my BTC.

This actually would be a great idea! As the devs would be paid in XCP anyhow, they would have a vested interest to keep pushing XCP further.

Well, I do hope we manage to reach a similar balance once the wallet is out, and people can easily sent XCP donations to devs.
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
Burning BTC is not like burning oil, trees, or other things have real value. There's nothing lost to the world. The only result is that the rest BTC have appreciated a little bid. Therefore, it's not a waste like we burn a lot of oil or coal or tree for nothing.

Moreover, it's arguable whether giving Devs 1500 BTC is better for the incentive. If I were the dev and got 1500 BTC, I could be quite lazy and tends to enjoy the life instead of coding around the clock.

Therefore, it has to be a foundation manage the 1500 BTC transparently for bounties. In that case, centralization may lead to corruption, and community are reluctant to contribute and only paid coders work for money. Look at the progress of Mastercoin.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Vires in Numeris
I hate to say this after the fact, but proof of burn is a really, really, really stupid, inefficient and unproductive concept.
There are much better ways to handle proof of stake.
That money could have fed a whole village in africa for a year.
I would much rather the devs got that 1,400 BTC than it just being destroyed pointlessly.

Of course, I've said this after the fact.

In the same way, many still claim proof of work (as done by Bitcoin) as a "needlessly wasteful expenditure of computing resources". Neither is true. Proof of work, as done for bitcoin and other currencies, is done to secure the blockchain. Proof of burn, as done here, is done to produce a permanent record for fair distribution of an asset that you can't get by sending the "otherwise burnt" BTCs to the devs, to the nearest charity, or whomever.

Next, people are going to come out and claim that the 10000 BTC pizza was "a pointless idea". Just like in that example, a price was set for something that otherwise had no perceived value.

Think of the 1400 BTC burned as assets to purchase XCP "mining rigs" that produced however many coins you have now. (In fact, the bitcoin.it proof of burn page gives this very description). That is the value of proof of burn.

That said, donating to the devs (or better yet, contributing to the project by testing, writing articles, designing sites, etc. ) is a great idea. We can launch publicity campaigns and such after the burn period and after stuff like a centralized exchange and an online client are up and running.
I think it is a logical fallacy to assume that proof-of-burn is the only method of securing a permanent record of fair distribution.

Let me suggest this hypothetical:
I could contact a donation agent at the WWF or Red cross and say, "I want to donate somewhere between $100,000-$1,000,000 to your organization in the form of bitcoin. All you have to do is post an address on your website where you would like to receive the bitcoins."
They could post a news article on their website with the intended address, then a system could be set up to watch and distribute XCP based on the coins sent to that address, much in the same way we are doing now.

In this hypothetical situation, we know that I nor anyone but the charity controls the bitcoin address.

In another hypothetical:

A small amount could be shaved off the XCP amount before being dispensed to the recipients. I send 1 BTC to an address. I am awarded 1000 XCP minus 2-3% which is award to the dev accounts (I get 980, they get 20).

This would be an autodonation, but we know that they couldn't run off with my BTC, they would actually need to develop XCP into something valuable to profit from my BTC.

One of the largest problems with cryptocurrencies I find is that they are developed by programmers, not economists or necessarily freedom fighters. Most developers are focused on making the code work and not developing a fairer or more efficient system. If you're not a programmer, fat chance at getting anyone to listen to your great ideas or join your cause.

When we look back at all the electricity we've wasted on bitcoins PoW concept to "secure the blockchain" as you put it, I think we will be a little disappointed at how wasteful and naive we were.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
I hate to say this after the fact, but proof of burn is a really, really, really stupid, inefficient and unproductive concept.
There are much better ways to handle proof of stake.
That money could have fed a whole village in africa for a year.
I would much rather the devs got that 1,400 BTC than it just being destroyed pointlessly.

Of course, I've said this after the fact.

In the same way, many still claim proof of work (as done by Bitcoin) as a "needlessly wasteful expenditure of computing resources". Neither is true. Proof of work, as done for bitcoin and other currencies, is done to secure the blockchain. Proof of burn, as done here, is done to produce a permanent record for fair distribution of an asset that you can't get by sending the "otherwise burnt" BTCs to the devs, to the nearest charity, or whomever.

Next, people are going to come out and claim that the 10000 BTC pizza was "a pointless idea". Just like in that example, a price was set for something that otherwise had no perceived value.

Think of the 1400 BTC burned as assets to purchase XCP "mining rigs" that produced however many coins you have now. (In fact, the bitcoin.it proof of burn page gives this very description). That is the value of proof of burn.

That said, donating to the devs (or better yet, contributing to the project by testing, writing articles, designing sites, etc. ) is a great idea. We can launch publicity campaigns and such after the burn period and after stuff like a centralized exchange and an online client are up and running.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
I just hope this community can pull together and fund at least enough money for PhantomPhreak or xnova to work on this full-time, considering that the other competitors will have plenty of funds to pay salaries.

A rule of thumb was suggested here to donate 3%-5% of burnt XCP, provided devs will publicly display their expenses (like MSC, PTS or NXT do). I think it's a fair preposition, and everyone should consider doing so in their own self-interest.

that will be the most interesting part of the project, I will donate at least 10% of xcp over a period of a year - the higher the price in the beginning the more I am willing to donate in the beginning, with a low price in the beginning I'll donate more when the price rises to ensure that they can work properly on the project.

hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
In hindsight I think you're right and it seems extremely wasteful not to mention if they'd used proof of key owner head of oxfam, we probably could have got crazy returns as a $2million donation from a crypto startup would have been mainstream news.

I quite sure it would have not accumulated 1.5K BTC that way.

People are sending them exactly because they sure (hopefully) that no one can steal these BTC's.

Not so sure.

People sent 135 BTC to VisaCoin which was clearly a scam. Counterparty has a working daemon already, plus extensive documentation. VisaCoin had none of that, just poorly written PR drivel. I think this project still would accumulated a lot of BTC regardless.

I think going proof-of-burn was a very honorable thing to do though and I really respect the dev team for their decision. Hopefully, more of the people that are burning 1+ BTC start to donate.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
I just hope this community can pull together and fund at least enough money for PhantomPhreak or xnova to work on this full-time, considering that the other competitors will have plenty of funds to pay salaries.

A rule of thumb was suggested here to donate 3%-5% of burnt XCP, provided devs will publicly display their expenses (like MSC, PTS or NXT do). I think it's a fair preposition, and everyone should consider doing so in their own self-interest.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
In hindsight I think you're right and it seems extremely wasteful not to mention if they'd used proof of key owner head of oxfam, we probably could have got crazy returns as a $2million donation from a crypto startup would have been mainstream news.

I quite sure it would have not accumulated 1.5K BTC that way.

People are sending them exactly because they sure (hopefully) that no one can steal these BTC's.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 502
I hate to say this after the fact, but proof of burn is a really, really, really stupid, inefficient and unproductive concept.
There are much better ways to handle proof of stake.
That money could have fed a whole village in africa for a year.
I would much rather the devs got that 1,400 BTC than it just being destroyed pointlessly.

Of course, I've said this after the fact.

In hindsight I think you're right and it seems extremely wasteful not to mention if they'd used proof of key owner head of oxfam, we probably could have got crazy returns as a $2million donation from a crypto startup would have been mainstream news.
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
Ironically, considering the atmosphere of the alt-scene at the time this was launched (ie. new IPO scams every day), XCP would probably have received a tiny fraction of the investment that it ended up getting.

Yeah, this is the thing.  Proof of burn was one of the only avenues open to demonstrate good faith.  It's also turned out to be a nice way to distribute initial stake, even if it is a lousy way to reward creators and devs for their efforts.

I just hope this community can pull together and fund at least enough money for PhantomPhreak or xnova to work on this full-time, considering that the other competitors will have plenty of funds to pay salaries.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
I hate to say this after the fact, but proof of burn is a really, really, really stupid, inefficient and unproductive concept.
There are much better ways to handle proof of stake.
That money could have fed a whole village in africa for a year.
I would much rather the devs got that 1,400 BTC than it just being destroyed pointlessly.

Of course, I've said this after the fact.

Yeah, it was a worthy experiment.  I can't imagine anyone else creating a proof of burn coin anytime soon, but thats not to say XCP can't be great, even if it's birth turns out to be an experiment that is never repeated.

Ironically, considering the atmosphere of the alt-scene at the time this was launched (ie. new IPO scams every day), XCP would probably have received a tiny fraction of the investment that it ended up getting.  So, in the end, proof of burn was necessary to get XCP to where it is at today.  So, silly to wonder what could have been accomplished with that 1400 BTC if it hadn't been burned, because if it hadn't been burned there wouldn't be anything close to 1400 BTC invested here.
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
I assume the devs will push a hotfix soon, although it does worry me a little bit that activity on the counterpartyd repo (including the dev branch) seems to have tailed off  -- and right when I was starting work on a GUI!.  Hope the large influx of capital hasn't diluted their shares to the point where they're losing interest.  This is a extremely promising project.

I haven't had good Internet access is all! And if there're are any particular changes to counterpartyd that you'd like to see happen in the near future, let us know.

Excellent, glad you're here.

I really like the zmq API in the dev branch.  ZeroMQ is a brilliant piece of engineering that makes true parallelism in Python a snap. Is that going to be integrated into production?  If so, I'll use its pubsub for the GUI I'm building to get updates instead of polling the JSON-RPC API.

Also, are you drawing the line at 1 confirmation?  i.e, do you not want to show any 0 confirmation transactions?  If not, an easy and effective way in Python to signal whenever a new tx hits the network is to use one of the many implementation of ArtForz's old Python half-node, which is effectively a Bitcoin node (as you probably know).  In fact, Jeff Garzik has made this into a full Bitcoin node in PyNode.

Anyway, the asyncore imple is probably best for this project since it wouldn't introduce any external dependencies and can be used with any Python3 (asyncio/tulip is very cool but only 3.3+).  But this way, you can get notification of new 0 confirmation transactions without polling bitcoind listsinceblock, which is inefficient and cumbersome since you have to keep up with the tx's you've already processed.

This way, there's no 10 minute delay before a new tx shows up (of course, you'd need to indicate it's a 0 confirmation tx).  But I can understand if you've decided to only officially display 1 confirmation transactions.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Vires in Numeris
I hate to say this after the fact, but proof of burn is a really, really, really stupid, inefficient and unproductive concept.
There are much better ways to handle proof of stake.
That money could have fed a whole village in africa for a year.
I would much rather the devs got that 1,400 BTC than it just being destroyed pointlessly.

Of course, I've said this after the fact.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
I assume the devs will push a hotfix soon, although it does worry me a little bit that activity on the counterpartyd repo (including the dev branch) seems to have tailed off  -- and right when I was starting work on a GUI!.  Hope the large influx of capital hasn't diluted their shares to the point where they're losing interest.  This is a extremely promising project.

I haven't had good Internet access is all! And if there're are any particular changes to counterpartyd that you'd like to see happen in the near future, let us know.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Are people still able to run the client now?  Someone has issued a buy order for a non-existent asset (asset name "CREDIT") and it's crashing my client.  I've hacked out a fix, but I see at least one other person is still making orders.  Does the client still run on some other OS, like Windows?  I see that at least blockscan.com is stuck at the same place I was, prior to the buy order for a non-existing asset.

By the way (and if I'm understanding the problem correctly), if you created the buy order for "CREDIT" without first creating the asset, would you please cancel your order?  Thanks -- It's blocking trade for the rest of us.

I assume the devs will push a hotfix soon, although it does worry me a little bit that activity on the counterpartyd repo (including the dev branch) seems to have tailed off  -- and right when I was starting work on a GUI!.  Hope the large influx of capital hasn't diluted their shares to the point where they're losing interest.  This is a extremely promising project.

PS: All of you who are gleefully creating non-backed assets such as Dogecoin should just save yourself the time and read through the old Ripple forum threads -- it's all been done before and people will soon get bored and only people trading real, trusted assets will remain.  By the way, everyone who was calling for Ripple on the Bitcoin blockchain should jump on this opportunity, because this project is all the innovative features of Ripple on the BTC blockchain, plus significant additional features, all with a fair distribution.  What more could you ask for?

Hoping the devs are just staying low key for now until the burn period ends, awesome that the initial distribution of XCP is so fair, but I think even they realize it got a bit bigger than they imagined!

Best way to support the devs is make a donation so they can spend more time on this project, it may be a labor of love but they gotta eat too.

Just sent over a small donation so I could see that wallet finally crack 3 BTC.  It's kinda a catch-22, more donations and community support will roll in as soon as there is at least a basic GUI, I imagine the average investor is waiting for that before they touch their XCP.  But development can only progress so fast and far as I imagine the devs can't devote their whole lives to XCP as you can only live off of 3 BTC for so long.  Here's to hoping the devs are basement dwelling neckbeards who are tirelessly working 24/7 and gonna blow our minds with something amazing as soon as the burn period ends!
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1010
he who has the gold makes the rules
I am not a technical guy, but I know this project has a potential bump to bitcoin protocol application. We are happy to see that there are more and more bitcoin protocol application startups. Never think Bitcoin is just a kind of crypto-currency, bitcoin is more than a crypto-currency. Lots of application could be coming out above the protocol. I would like to list the potential project here:

MSC - Mastercoin, application on top of bitcoin protocol
Coloredcoins, application on top of bitcoin protocol
BTS - Bitshares, new application
NXT - Nextcoin, new application totally different than bitcoin
XCP - Counterparty, application on top of bitcoin protocol
eMu - eMunie, new application totally different than bitcoin
eTher - ethereum, application on top of bitcoin protocol
Zerocoin, new application totally different than bitcoin

If you know more, add to this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=428785.new#new

ether is from the ground up, it is not on top of bitcoin as far as i can tell

and PTS has it's own unique blockchain using proof of momentum hashing or whatever, BTS is not even out yet and how knows when it will be out.

NXT has a gazillion clones popping up right now since the price got pumped up so damn high for adding what socio-economic value exactly?
Jump to: