Anonymity - page 3. | Bitcointalksearch.org

MajidBC

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KryptKoin is one of the best!!!

Quote from: DannyElfman on August 06, 2014, 10:37:12 AM

Quote from: MajidBC on August 04, 2014, 12:57:06 PM

One of the bitcointalk ads says:
"Even if you use Bitcoin through Tor, the way transactions are handled by the network makes anonymity difficult to achieve. Do not expect your transactions to be anonymous unless you really know what you're doing."

In your opinion, which coin really has anonymous transaction? Is total anonymity possible at all?

The ad talks about how your IP could be linked to your transaction.

Now if you use TOR but still didn't hide your traces before, than an ovserver could link your previous transactions to an IP because all Txs are linked.

So to achive anonymity with bitcoin you need to cut the link between your transactions and your IP and in addition to that you need to unlink your transactions from your personal details. Tumblers can help with that.

Thanks for the explanation. You explained it very simple.

MajidBC

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Activity: 182

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KryptKoin is one of the best!!!

Quote from: sonoIO on August 06, 2014, 10:30:44 AM

Quote from: aminorex on August 06, 2014, 09:32:45 AM

Quote from: Christ-Clin on August 06, 2014, 08:32:08 AM

Is anonymity very important? i think the important thing is benefit of mankind.

Without anonymity, the best working picture of the future is that of a boot endlessly stomping on a human face.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7998097

Couldn't agree more. Anonymity (i.e. privacy) is human right regulated by UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, if nowhere else in your country. One should learn from the history, not ignore it.

Additionally, i personally believe that privacy is one of few (if not the only efficient one) peaceful tools that ppl have to motivate their states to reorganize and optimize itself, if/when corruption gets out of control - i.e. when corruption is that large that fair elections are not possibility anymore, or when fair elections are possible but don't change anything. This second part may be hard to understand for someone that lives in well organized country, but there are really fu*ked up countries in the World.

The NSA scandal was disappointing. Is the same thing true about other countries? For instance, Europeans, is your privacy violated by your governments, like the US?

MajidBC

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Activity: 182

Merit: 100

KryptKoin is one of the best!!!

Quote from: sonoIO on August 06, 2014, 10:30:44 AM

Quote from: aminorex on August 06, 2014, 09:32:45 AM

Quote from: Christ-Clin on August 06, 2014, 08:32:08 AM

Is anonymity very important? i think the important thing is benefit of mankind.

Without anonymity, the best working picture of the future is that of a boot endlessly stomping on a human face.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7998097

Couldn't agree more. Anonymity (i.e. privacy) is human right regulated by UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, if nowhere else in your country. One should learn from the history, not ignore it.

Additionally, i personally believe that privacy is one of few (if not the only efficient one) peaceful tools that ppl have to motivate their states to reorganize and optimize itself, if/when corruption gets out of control - i.e. when corruption is that large that fair elections are not possibility anymore, or when fair elections are possible but don't change anything. This second part may be hard to understand for someone that lives in well organized country, but there are really fu*ked up countries in the World.

@Christ-Clin
Have you read the book "1984" by George Orwell?

MajidBC

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Activity: 182

Merit: 100

KryptKoin is one of the best!!!

Quote from: fluffypony on August 06, 2014, 06:43:53 AM

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 02:26:56 AM

Quote from: fluffypony on August 05, 2014, 08:51:22 AM

Basically, with ring signatures a transaction output is signed by you and by a group of random signatories (garnered from the utxoset, and the number of signatures is specified by you). Only one of these signatures is "true" (and that can be determined by the recipient), but to an outside observer they cannot determine which of the N signatures on an output is true, as they all appear to be valid.

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive explanation. You said in the quoted paragraph "the number of signatures is specified by you". Of course, the bigger, the harder to find the sender, right? Is there any bound for it? And, where can I set that?

Well, remember that you first need to crack either end of a transaction before you even get to the ring signature stage. Pragmatically, then: let's say you've purchased "ileegil drukz" from Walter, a manufacturer. He gets busted by the DEA who beat him with a pipe wrench until he reveals his wallet password. Now they can see all of the incoming transfers. They pick one of them that has, say, a mixin of 5. They now have 5 seemingly valid signatures on each of the transaction outputs (but no direct way of knowing who those 5 signatories are, short of knowing the identity of every single wallet holder on the network). Quite literally the only way for them to prove a transaction happened is to have access to both the sender and the recipient's private keys.

There is no upper bound on mixin, but each signature increases the size of the transaction, so when we move to per-kb fees a higher mixin will cost more. Right now you're only bound by physical transaction size limits. Just to confirm that very high mixins work, I created a 1 XMR example transaction with a mixin of 100 no problem, and it was mined and confirmed with a minute.

That was clever. So both ends of transaction is needed.
And, per-kb fee is the limiting factor not to set the number of signatures so high, unless we want to transfer a high amount of money, or a very secret one (for instance to Walter White).

Who is the designer of this transaction method? Is this published in a scientific journal, for instance in a cryptography one?

MajidBC

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Activity: 182

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KryptKoin is one of the best!!!

Quote from: aminorex on August 06, 2014, 05:45:13 AM

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 02:38:29 AM

Thanks for the response. I just read about Bitcoin mixer. It's an easy idea, but I guess its implementation is complicated. How much is the fee for it?
...
Do you think governments will forbid anonymous transactions? For example, by forcing exchanges not to accept them.

Coinjoin is very weak. Read about coinjoin sudoku.

Exchanges are nice but not necessary. There will always be variation between jurisdictions anyhow, and crypto is global.

Yup, I just read the following paragraph from http://www.coinjoinsudoku.com/advisory/

Executive Summary:

The SharedCoin mixing service provided by Blockchain.info offers only limited privacy to users due to weaknesses in its design. Bitcoin users should carefully consider their privacy requirements and evaluate other mixing services if they require serious privacy guarantees. A tool for analyzing SharedCoin and other CoinJoin-based mixing protocols will be released approximately two weeks following this advisory to allow SharedCoin users adequate time to protect their privacy.

Coingrab

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Got to get them all!

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 06, 2014, 11:03:28 AM

Quote from: Coingrab on August 06, 2014, 10:41:17 AM

What about Zerocash / coin anonymity These are supposed to be totally anonymous. wont they be untraceable when they go live?

If they go live anyway. I haven't heard anything for a while now.

Doesn't mean it's not coming though. Maybe they're just hard at work.

What I've read on it anyway was its real good but dog ass slow and so they need to speed it up somehow.

fluffypony

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GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com

Quote from: dadon on August 06, 2014, 12:48:10 PM

ring signatures used in coins like monero cause blockchain bloat making them unusable for mainstream adoption...so no...XC is what your looking for, read it and weep if your not invested already https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xcxcurrency-decentralised-trustless-privacy-platform-encrypted-xchat-pos-630547 Roll Eyes

Do you run a full Bitcoin node with the 20gb blockchain? Just checking.

uvt9

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Activity: 300

Merit: 250

Quote from: dadon on August 06, 2014, 12:48:10 PM

ring signatures used in coins like monero cause blockchain bloat making them unusable for mainstream adoption...so no...XC is what your looking for, read it and weep if your not invested already https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xcxcurrency-decentralised-trustless-privacy-platform-encrypted-xchat-pos-630547 Roll Eyes

I think you need more professional promotion, simply saying "blah blah XXX is what you need blah blah ..." would sound stupid and make people stay away from what you're trying to promote.

I don't deny that Ring Signatures cause bigger blockchain, but consider it as a tradeoff to achieve superior privacy which is unmatched by any coin based on Bitcoin protocol (including XC).

About mass adoption, average users will end up using light weight clients on their phone/PC, leaving full nodes run on dedicated servers around the world.

dadon

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Activity: 1190

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Pecvniate obedivnt omnia.

ring signatures used in coins like monero cause blockchain bloat making them unusable for mainstream adoption...so no...XC is what your looking for, read it and weep if your not invested already https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xcxcurrency-decentralised-trustless-privacy-platform-encrypted-xchat-pos-630547 Roll Eyes

Este Nuno

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Activity: 826

Merit: 1000

amarha

Quote from: Coingrab on August 06, 2014, 10:41:17 AM

What about Zerocash / coin anonymity These are supposed to be totally anonymous. wont they be untraceable when they go live?

If they go live anyway. I haven't heard anything for a while now.

Doesn't mean it's not coming though. Maybe they're just hard at work.

Coingrab

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Got to get them all!

What about Zerocash / coin anonymity These are supposed to be totally anonymous. wont they be untraceable when they go live?

DannyElfman

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Quote from: MajidBC on August 04, 2014, 12:57:06 PM

One of the bitcointalk ads says:
"Even if you use Bitcoin through Tor, the way transactions are handled by the network makes anonymity difficult to achieve. Do not expect your transactions to be anonymous unless you really know what you're doing."

In your opinion, which coin really has anonymous transaction? Is total anonymity possible at all?

The ad talks about how your IP could be linked to your transaction.

Now if you use TOR but still didn't hide your traces before, than an ovserver could link your previous transactions to an IP because all Txs are linked.

So to achive anonymity with bitcoin you need to cut the link between your transactions and your IP and in addition to that you need to unlink your transactions from your personal details. Tumblers can help with that.

sonoIO

full member

Activity: 209

Merit: 100

Quote from: aminorex on August 06, 2014, 09:32:45 AM

Quote from: Christ-Clin on August 06, 2014, 08:32:08 AM

Is anonymity very important? i think the important thing is benefit of mankind.

Without anonymity, the best working picture of the future is that of a boot endlessly stomping on a human face.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7998097

Couldn't agree more. Anonymity (i.e. privacy) is human right regulated by UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, if nowhere else in your country. One should learn from the history, not ignore it.

Additionally, i personally believe that privacy is one of few (if not the only efficient one) peaceful tools that ppl have to motivate their states to reorganize and optimize itself, if/when corruption gets out of control - i.e. when corruption is that large that fair elections are not possibility anymore, or when fair elections are possible but don't change anything. This second part may be hard to understand for someone that lives in well organized country, but there are really fu*ked up countries in the World.

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1029

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: Christ-Clin on August 06, 2014, 08:32:08 AM

Is anonymity very important? i think the important thing is benefit of mankind.

Without anonymity, the best working picture of the future is that of a boot endlessly stomping on a human face.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7998097

bitsmichel

sr. member

Activity: 518

Merit: 250

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 06, 2014, 08:56:31 AM

Quote from: bitsmichel on August 06, 2014, 08:37:58 AM

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 05:41:15 AM

Quote from: dont take on August 06, 2014, 04:10:07 AM

the big data make anonymity become more and more difficult.

What do you mean by "the big data"? Blockchain info?

I think he means the mass surveillance program which includes data from millions of web-trackers, social networks including facebook, email services, phone conversations, instant messengers, google searches and the list goes on. All of this data is collected and accessible by employees of the NSA and private contractors without a warrant, both private and public information. To be anonymous these days you need to take extreme precautions, because there is money to be made in stalingrad surveillance systems Wink

Not even just the NSA. With Bitcoin anyone can do analysis fairly easily. Tools for data analysis are easier to use now more than ever and anyone who can code a little can take a bit data set and try to get some useful information.

yes, but in relation with anonymity you need an enormous dataset which at present is only accessible to large corporations, private contractors and organisations like the NSA.

Este Nuno

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Activity: 826

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amarha

Quote from: bitsmichel on August 06, 2014, 08:37:58 AM

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 05:41:15 AM

Quote from: dont take on August 06, 2014, 04:10:07 AM

the big data make anonymity become more and more difficult.

What do you mean by "the big data"? Blockchain info?

I think he means the mass surveillance program which includes data from millions of web-trackers, social networks including facebook, email services, phone conversations, instant messengers, google searches and the list goes on. All of this data is collected and accessible by employees of the NSA and private contractors without a warrant, both private and public information. To be anonymous these days you need to take extreme precautions, because there is money to be made in stalingrad surveillance systems Wink

Not even just the NSA. With Bitcoin anyone can do analysis fairly easily. Tools for data analysis are easier to use now more than ever and anyone who can code a little can take a bit data set and try to get some useful information.

bitsmichel

sr. member

Activity: 518

Merit: 250

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 05:41:15 AM

Quote from: dont take on August 06, 2014, 04:10:07 AM

the big data make anonymity become more and more difficult.

What do you mean by "the big data"? Blockchain info?

I think he means the mass surveillance program which includes data from millions of web-trackers, social networks including facebook, email services, phone conversations, instant messengers, google searches and the list goes on. All of this data is collected and accessible by employees of the NSA and private contractors without a warrant, both private and public information. To be anonymous these days you need to take extreme precautions, because there is money to be made in stalingrad surveillance systems Wink

Christ-Clin

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Activity: 33

Merit: 0

Is anonymity very important? i think the important thing is benefit of mankind.

fluffypony

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Activity: 1274

Merit: 1060

GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 02:26:56 AM

Quote from: fluffypony on August 05, 2014, 08:51:22 AM

Basically, with ring signatures a transaction output is signed by you and by a group of random signatories (garnered from the utxoset, and the number of signatures is specified by you). Only one of these signatures is "true" (and that can be determined by the recipient), but to an outside observer they cannot determine which of the N signatures on an output is true, as they all appear to be valid.

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive explanation. You said in the quoted paragraph "the number of signatures is specified by you". Of course, the bigger, the harder to find the sender, right? Is there any bound for it? And, where can I set that?

Well, remember that you first need to crack either end of a transaction before you even get to the ring signature stage. Pragmatically, then: let's say you've purchased "ileegil drukz" from Walter, a manufacturer. He gets busted by the DEA who beat him with a pipe wrench until he reveals his wallet password. Now they can see all of the incoming transfers. They pick one of them that has, say, a mixin of 5. They now have 5 seemingly valid signatures on each of the transaction outputs (but no direct way of knowing who those 5 signatories are, short of knowing the identity of every single wallet holder on the network). Quite literally the only way for them to prove a transaction happened is to have access to both the sender and the recipient's private keys.

There is no upper bound on mixin, but each signature increases the size of the transaction, so when we move to per-kb fees a higher mixin will cost more. Right now you're only bound by physical transaction size limits. Just to confirm that very high mixins work, I created a 1 XMR example transaction with a mixin of 100 no problem, and it was mined and confirmed with a minute.

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1029

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: MajidBC on August 06, 2014, 02:38:29 AM

Thanks for the response. I just read about Bitcoin mixer. It's an easy idea, but I guess its implementation is complicated. How much is the fee for it?
...
Do you think governments will forbid anonymous transactions? For example, by forcing exchanges not to accept them.

Coinjoin is very weak. Read about coinjoin sudoku.

Exchanges are nice but not necessary. There will always be variation between jurisdictions anyhow, and crypto is global.

Topic: Anonymity - page 3. (Read 4731 times)