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Topic: Anti-Fraud Team -- Help Wanted (Read 8500 times)

legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: 1pirata
January 05, 2013, 05:54:00 PM
#67
Anyone could please TL;DR what ATC said?

I don't understand the use of "TL;DR" as a transitive verb?  Huh

transitive verb tl;dr = 'summarize'


10mBtc for a nice tl;dr post

Edit: Ok, 50mBtc for it, I really want to know what is all about in this thread.

Ok, seeing no one wants to do it I posted on Rugatu and attached the coins to it.

http://www.rugatu.com/questions/5757/can-you-write-a-forum-thread-summary

Hope you guys can help, I don't have the time to lurk this much.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 04, 2013, 02:08:47 AM
#66
But all that changed just prior to eBay taking over the rein.

During the reign of Meg "Evil" Whitman, I.?  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
January 04, 2013, 01:50:58 AM
#65
Did you know that when PayPal first started its founders embraced an ideal parallel to Bitcoin? But all that changed just prior to eBay taking over the rein.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 04, 2013, 12:44:30 AM
#64
Thanks ATC, got it. Good luck with your future endeavours on this!

No prob, and thanks again!  Cheesy

------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem doesn't come from accepting Bitcoin as a payment... of course when looked at in that light, Bitcoin is the safest of all: basically it's digital, password-protected cash and doesn't have your name or any personal info attached. The problems come when we need to exchange Bitcoin for other currencies, such as the US dollar. We can't exactly stuff cash in our computer and send it to someone. Of course, you can make wire transfers but that's not so convenient (many banks require you to appear in person). It sucks, but Paypal and credit cards are about the only instant online payment options for fiat currencies. And Bitcoin needs liquidity to grow and survive... people need to have easier access to Bitcoin and merchants need safe, instantaneous ways of accepting payment in fiat currencies -- especially when selling Bitcoins. This is going to require a lot of change...

Anyhow, I'm still working on my approach to Paypal about this. I drafted out a lot of what I wanted to say about all of this, but I'm struggling a bit with a good introduction to the whole thing. It needs to come off right, so that its importance comes across and catches their attention. But I still haven't figured out the best way to pitch this to them... I scratched something out earlier, and I'd like to have it subjected to peer-review and get some suggestions/corrections. It will lose its formatting when I post it here, but this is it:

Quote from: ATC777
Why should Paypal care about Bitcoin?

Bitcoin, created in 2009, is one of the world's first highly successful crypto-currencies to gain widespread support and a large community of passionate users. It's advantages as a medium of exchange and unit of account are many, but among its most important features are:

High level of anonymity -- protection of users' privacy
Secure, irreversible payments -- no risk of charge-backs
Decentralization
A powerful and stable p2p network
Ease of use
Instantaneous digital transactions, to/from anywhere in the world

As the Bitcoin community grows, the demand for accessibility and liquidity continues to rise. Though thousands of merchants now accept Bitcoin as payment for goods and services (and that number continues to grow) there is a growing need for safe and secure exchanges between Bitcoin and other currencies such as the US dollar or the Euro.

Paypal, the world-leader in digital payments and processing, finds itself in a unique position to capture a portion of this growing market which has already reached a capitalization of nearly $150M USD. However, the nature of Paypal's payment system and many of its out-dated and archaic policies have frightened many Bitcoin users away. Paypal has, to some extent, perceived Bitcoin as a potential threat to their position in the digital payments and payment processing market. But instead of seeing Bitcoin as a threat to its business model or attacking it, Paypal could benefit greatly from embracing this new technology and positioning itself in such a way as to encourage Bitcoin commerce and the growth thereof.

Unless fiat currencies like the US dollar were to completely disappear, there will always be a need to exchange Bitcoin for other currencies (and vice-versa). And in this "digital age" there will always be a need to make fast and safe online transactions. Needless to say, if Paypal were to update its system and policies to properly facilitate safe Bitcoin transactions amongst its users it would dually benefit from an immediate boost to earnings and rapid growth of its Bitcoin revenue base.

The problem with Paypal: Seller beware!

There are several problems with Paypal's system and policies which frighten the majority of Bitcoin users away from using Paypal's services, and Paypal should indeed view this as potential revenues forfeited. The most widely acknowledged problems include:

High levels of fraud and wide-spread abuse of Paypal
Lack of payment option based on secured deposits
Extremely high charge-back risks for merchants and traders
Excessively "buyer-friendly" policies
Little to no protection or support for Paypal merchants
Lack of proper collaboration with eBay to eliminate buyer scams
No proper policy in place to facilitate the trade of intangibles or "digital goods"

Due to the nature of Bitcoin transactions, sending Bitcoins to another person is irreversible -- there is no such thing as a charge-back in the Bitcoin world. It is like making a cash payment; you cannot "reverse" a cash transaction and take the money back (unless the other party agrees to give it to you). Likewise, you cannot take back the Bitcoin you sent to another party unless they agree to refund you.

In contrast, Paypal allows charge-backs or disputes on payments often up to 180 days from the time payment is made. The problem with this is that it puts a tremendous amount of risk into the equation for anyone who sells Bitcoins or any type of valuables for a Paypal payment. Because of this, there is now an infestation of charge-back scammers who buy Bitcoins or other valuable items with Paypal and then reverse the payment -- thus not only taking the item but also stealing the seller's money. It is the policies Paypal uses for charge-backs and disputes which facilitates this crime. Paypal often neglects to protect its merchants and leaves them liable for the charges, which can often be too much to bear and have ruined more than a few honest people's credit. Scammers are aware of Paypal's faulty approach to this problem and their eagerness to almost always come down on the buyer's side of a dispute. Some like to point the finger at Bitcoin itself, but this is an incorrect interpretation of things. Charge-back fraud can target anyone, but especially those selling valuable items which are easy to convert to cash (whether it's gold, a Rolex watch or Bitcoins); Bitcoin just happens to be popular and convenient and scammers know about Paypal's unwillingness to protect sellers or Bitcoin commerce.

Both eBay and Paypal have failed to adapt policies to suit a rapidly changing technological landscape. The trade of digital goods (e.g., software, digital media, eBooks) and now digital currencies is growing at an ever quickening rate. But eBay and Paypal implicitly assume that all transactions made through their systems are for physical goods which must be placed in a box and shipped. This has held back the trade of things like 3D models, software, independent movies and music and even Bitcoin. To make matters worse, Paypal does not extend any protective benefits to those who sell intangible or digital goods, creating yet another reason for not only Bitcoin users but software developers, artists, musicians and many others to avoid Paypal.

(NOTE :: Unfinished rough draft)

If anyone can make some suggestions or criticisms I definitely appreciate the effort!  Smiley

--ATC--
full member
Activity: 178
Merit: 100
January 03, 2013, 10:46:19 PM
#63
Thanks ATC, got it. Good luck with your future endeavours on this!
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 03, 2013, 03:48:35 PM
#62
Yes, 1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc is the address to send the 0.80 back to. Thanks for your efforts.

Just sent you 0.81 BTC so it would cover your transaction fee for sending it to me in the first place.

Transaction ID#::
aed023de995d6f8106dfa6932790ab33a527c6130932de6d092ba8685af41219

Please confirm that you've received it!

BTW, I really thank you for your willingness to help and do something good in the community. I'm going to keep working on seeing this idea come to fruition!  Smiley

Regards,

--ATC--

EDIT::

Here's the block-chain info for your incoming 0.81 BTC refund:
http://blockchain.info/address/1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc
full member
Activity: 178
Merit: 100
January 03, 2013, 03:27:14 PM
#61
So... no one going to help it seems...  Tongue

How can I just give back the 0.80 BTC donation to whence it came?

In the block-chain info it looks like it came from the address: 1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc

http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

Should I just send it back there?

I just wanna give it back and I'm going to work on this pet project I have on my heart on my own time and I'll put in my own money. Others can choose to help me, or not. But it's just not worth the controversy, imho. We can't accomplish anything if we only argue amongst ourselves and let con artists run unbridled throughout our community...  Undecided

Sorry if my excitement ran too high and I started off on the wrong foot... I just think this it is important for the future of Bitcoin to clean up the filth. Without confidence we are destined to fail. But if we can make Bitcoin commerce safe we can turn this world upside down.

--ATC--

P.S. -- I'm not stopping my efforts. Just wanna take 3rd party funds out of the equation.

Yes, 1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc is the address to send the 0.80 back to. Thanks for your efforts.
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
January 03, 2013, 03:09:25 PM
#60
It's not Bitcoin itself which is unsafe. It's the fact that there are scammers everywhere preying on people because no one has really done anything to stop them. I talked to a guy last night who said he has more scammers trying to buy from him than legitimate customers. That is, to say the least, quite troubling...

Fraud is rampant across all payment methods, particularly internet-related ones like credit cards. Bitcoin is the only safe one. You can accept Bitcoins from any customer from anywhere in the world, and never have to worry about fraud.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 03, 2013, 02:59:37 PM
#59
There isn't anything insecure about Bitcoin, there is something insecure with how YOU chose to do business.

I know. Which is why I completely stopped dealing with Paypal and such. I already acknowledged that mistake.

It's not Bitcoin itself which is unsafe. It's the fact that there are scammers everywhere preying on people because no one has really done anything to stop them. I talked to a guy last night who said he has more scammers trying to buy from him than legitimate customers. That is, to say the least, quite troubling...

And don't be mistaken... what I'm proposing is NOT just about Paypal or credit card companies. It's about combating all Bitcoin-related fraud/scams, even things such as the bogus CPC electronics which a few of our community members are actively working on having shut down. These are the types of things we need to be working on together to "clean up the street".

Even if all I accomplish is raising some awareness and stopping one person from getting cheated by someone like the people behind the fake CPC then we did something worthwhile... So while we might not be taking down "bad guys" like Dog the Bounty Hunter, at least we can do something in the way of prevention and seeking policy changes.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
January 03, 2013, 02:48:46 PM
#58
The only way this is going to really work is to do it as a for-profit business and charge a fee to determine the fraud risk for each transaction.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
January 03, 2013, 02:48:36 PM
#57
It is a futile effort.  PayPal has no financial incentive to change anything neither does VISA or Matercard.  Someone using one of those and operating behind TOR dealing only with intangibles (no physical address) is essentially undetectable.  This is why it was naive to accept PayPal as a payment method despite the stickied warning in currency exchange.

Then rather than learn from that you jump off tilting at windmills.  Bitcoin commerce is safe, we did over $3M in transactions last year and I hope to triple that this year.  Your grandiose claims are off putting.  There isn't anything insecure about Bitcoin, there is something insecure with how YOU chose to do business.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 03, 2013, 02:43:27 PM
#56
So... no one going to help it seems...  Tongue

How can I just give back the 0.80 BTC donation to whence it came?

In the block-chain info it looks like it came from the address: 1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc

http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

Should I just send it back there?

I just wanna give it back and I'm going to work on this pet project I have on my heart on my own time and I'll put in my own money. Others can choose to help me, or not. But it's just not worth the controversy, imho. We can't accomplish anything if we only argue amongst ourselves and let con artists run unbridled throughout our community...  Undecided

Sorry if my excitement ran too high and I started off on the wrong foot... I just think this it is important for the future of Bitcoin to clean up the filth. Without confidence we are destined to fail. But if we can make Bitcoin commerce safe we can turn this world upside down.

--ATC--

P.S. -- I'm not stopping my efforts. Just wanna take 3rd party funds out of the equation.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 02, 2013, 10:08:27 PM
#55
Is this some kind of new coon-ass humor? I've lived in McComb, MS, for three years and never ran across it. Perhaps the border patrol stopped it from crossing over at Osyka.

Just messin' with you, Aaron. Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

I was just foxin.  Wink

I used to do a lot of deer hunting just outside of McComb... also been through Osyka quite a bit.
legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
January 02, 2013, 10:04:59 PM
#54
are you really wasting your time waffling about personal attacks?

seriously?

i have not called you childish or immature or used any derogatory names for you. so please please i plead with all my fingers pressed on the keyboard please read the threads.

are you also arguing with people because they have checked up on you?

you should be applauding people for finding vulnerabilities in your background and not trusting people on face value.

you should be teaching everyone to be doing the same, not attacking them.

now drop the defensive status, and accept that background checks are the norm when it comes to non face to face trading. don't reply with a defensive insult about immaturity and slander (by the way, you meant liable..)

take it on the chin that some people actually do look at the information available about the person.

now lets move onto the antifraud organisation. you dont want to head it up, ok cool. even more reason not to get defensive about it.

an antifraud organisation nees to do these things
* teach people of the easy to spot flaws in peoples background checks
* understand the laws that viable businesses need to obide by.
* to know the crime prevention agencies around the world that can enforce takedown orders on websites.
* understand that prevention is better then cure. especially on an anonymous community where its hard to chase after them after the fact. (E.G stopping CPC electronics before people hand over their money)
* understand that it does not cost huge amounts to send emails to crime prevention agencies or to the companies involved

now i plead again do not reply with a defensive waffle trying to win trust. please stick to the main evidence which we have asked for

*templates/emails sent to paypal/ebay. as stated you have already made some progress.
*templates/emails to CPC electronics
*list of the skills you require of people that you want to have within the organisation to take the pressure away from you.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
January 02, 2013, 09:34:58 PM
#53
When I first encountered the term, I Googled "tl dr", but the results proved too long to read, so I didn't bother. Somebody should start a Cliff Notes version of the internet so that I can fully enjoy it.

I sure do love Aaron's writing abilities. Puts me to shame, albeit that wouldn't have taken much. I wouldn't mind having him on my team as a player in some future enterprise. Welcome to the community, Aaron. (Apology inferred!)

BTW, Aaron, are you planning on attending the conference in San Jose, California on May 17-19 2013, titled "Bitcoin 2013: The Future of Payments"?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

Great! Who do I make the $10M check out to?  Kiss

Is this some kind of new coon-ass humor? I've lived in McComb, MS, for three years and never ran across it. Perhaps the border patrol stopped it from crossing over at Osyka.

Just messin' with you, Aaron. Later, bud.

~Bruno K~
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 02, 2013, 06:52:27 PM
#52
When I first encountered the term, I Googled "tl dr", but the results proved too long to read, so I didn't bother. Somebody should start a Cliff Notes version of the internet so that I can fully enjoy it.

I sure do love Aaron's writing abilities. Puts me to shame, albeit that wouldn't have taken much. I wouldn't mind having him on my team as a player in some future enterprise. Welcome to the community, Aaron. (Apology inferred!)

BTW, Aaron, are you planning on attending the conference in San Jose, California on May 17-19 2013, titled "Bitcoin 2013: The Future of Payments"?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

Great! Who do I make the $10M check out to?  Kiss
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
Its as easy as 0, 1, 1, 2, 3
January 02, 2013, 06:28:21 PM
#51
Keep this up and you will hit 10k posts tonight Bruno. And I can hit 1k too with some effort, then I can be 1/10th as evil as you!
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
January 02, 2013, 06:20:08 PM
#50
Anyone could please TL;DR what ATC said?

I don't understand the use of "TL;DR" as a transitive verb?  Huh

transitive verb tl;dr = 'summarize'


When I first encountered the term, I Googled "tl dr", but the results proved too long to read, so I didn't bother. Somebody should start a Cliff Notes version of the internet so that I can fully enjoy it.

I sure do love Aaron's writing abilities. Puts me to shame, albeit that wouldn't have taken much. I wouldn't mind having him on my team as a player in some future enterprise. Welcome to the community, Aaron. (Apology inferred!)

BTW, Aaron, are you planning on attending the conference in San Jose, California on May 17-19 2013, titled "Bitcoin 2013: The Future of Payments"?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

Its a trap, just ignore Bruno he is baiting you. He is evil, true story.

hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
Its as easy as 0, 1, 1, 2, 3
January 02, 2013, 06:08:41 PM
#49
Anyone could please TL;DR what ATC said?

I don't understand the use of "TL;DR" as a transitive verb?  Huh

transitive verb tl;dr = 'summarize'


When I first encountered the term, I Googled "tl dr", but the results proved too long to read, so I didn't bother. Somebody should start a Cliff Notes version of the internet so that I can fully enjoy it.

I sure do love Aaron's writing abilities. Puts me to shame, albeit that wouldn't have taken much. I wouldn't mind having him on my team as a player in some future enterprise. Welcome to the community, Aaron. (Apology inferred!)

BTW, Aaron, are you planning on attending the conference in San Jose, California on May 17-19 2013, titled "Bitcoin 2013: The Future of Payments"?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

Its a trap, just ignore Bruno he is baiting you. He is evil, true story.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
January 02, 2013, 06:03:56 PM
#48
Anyone could please TL;DR what ATC said?

I don't understand the use of "TL;DR" as a transitive verb?  Huh

transitive verb tl;dr = 'summarize'


When I first encountered the term, I Googled "tl dr", but the results proved too long to read, so I didn't bother. Somebody should start a Cliff Notes version of the internet so that I can fully enjoy it.

I sure do love Aaron's writing abilities. Puts me to shame, albeit that wouldn't have taken much. I wouldn't mind having him on my team as a player in some future enterprise. Welcome to the community, Aaron. (Apology inferred!)

BTW, Aaron, are you planning on attending the conference in San Jose, California on May 17-19 2013, titled "Bitcoin 2013: The Future of Payments"?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~
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