Are institutional investors capable of selling their bitcoins? - page 3.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

I am too much curious and confused to understand how they will manage to sell all of their btc if some day a big dump arrives, or if their investors start to take out their investments and ask them to sell the btc and pay them. For an institution to pull out their btc from their wallets and sell, there needs to be an institution or a very big whale on the other hand to buy all that and they will also need that much big liquidity for the same.

If a really big dump happens, many HODLers will be in trouble.

If a bear market starts, then even 5 days of delay is no biggy, these institutional investors will be still on great profit. And they surely have some smart analysts on their payroll which can tell clearly it's bear market or just another dip.
Then, I expect that at least some of these institutional investors have no intention to sell even if bear market starts. They are not traders/speculators and in 2-4 years the bull market will get them on even greater profit.

Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

Again, I think that they have analysts that can tell how big is the chance the bull run continues after 100k and advise them to buy or not. Or to sell.

If the institutional investors keep buying, the current bull run will be longer and the bear market will no longer be as bad as the previous ones. It's just a feeling though, but others have already said that this bull run is going to be different.

int03h

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Hedge funds sell their Bitcoins but not by devaluing the market because if they do, they will lose a significant portion of their profits when Bitcoin falls.
I think all their actions are in the plan that they have outlined.
If I were the owner of an investment fund I would have the following ways to sell my Bitcoin for maximum profit.
Example:
I sell my Bitcoin in the P2P market to avoid slippage.
I have placed a short order at the same time as my dumping and get the maximum profit from my short.

I think hedge funds will not sell their Bitcoin anytime soon because according to technical analysis Bitcoin can go further and hit higher value milestones in the near future.

SquallLeonhart

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Quote from: tygeade on April 25, 2021, 08:31:58 PM

Institutions might be collecting bitcoins vigorously/blindly but at the same time they might be cashing out as well to remain highly liquidated so that they could pay their customers on demand (I guess only inside people could confirm this).

There are different model based institutional firms. Some of them are doing investments as a core business but for that they are not allowing individual investors to participate DIRECTLY. They issue shares on behalf of their company and individual investors need to buy those stocks. So, if a customer needs money back they can simply sell those stocks of that company and do not need to enforce them to sell bitcoins for example.

You invest into an institution and you get back their stocks and you are free to encash or hold as per your wish. Your individual decision will not affect company's core business of what and when to buy or sell (but, when more number of people will be selling their stocks that may impact significantly).

Mauser

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Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

https://bitcointreasuries.org

Please visit the link above first before reading anything here.

After visiting there, all of you can see that how institutional investors are 'blindly' collecting bitcoins and adding more and more btc to their treasuries. I am too much curious and confused to understand how they will manage to sell all of their btc if some day a big dump arrives, or if their investors start to take out their investments and ask them to sell the btc and pay them. For an institution to pull out their btc from their wallets and sell, there needs to be an institution or a very big whale on the other hand to buy all that and they will also need that much big liquidity for the same.

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

I agree that institutions who invest millions into bitcoins won't be able to just sell them on an ordinary exchange. Large sell orders would just make the price fall down quickly. For such kind of transactions there would probably be over the counter transactions among large institutions. Such kind of trades are already be done with stock portfolios. So doing it with bitcoins is fine. You don't need to expect falling prices to sell your coins. It might be that the company just need money to invest into a new plant or project.

Anonylz

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Quote from: Poker Player on April 26, 2021, 01:59:20 AM

Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

I think what Saylor says sums it all up. I don't think all companies that buy Bitcoin think exactly the same way, but I'm sure most think very much like him. Bitcoin is the best asset you can buy today, number 1. And as such, you shouldn't sell it. Ever. If you need cash, you can borrow, use to cash flow of the company or sell other assets but never the best asset in the world. Whether you buy it at $100k or $1M, it is the most powerful and scarce asset in the world, so the value will continue to grow.

If this is the case, btc price is expected to grow infinity then why so many people worry about little market dump as we have experienced this past few days!
why McAffee prediction of $1 million btc seem odd to many people (it doesn't matter at what year it was suppose to happen), if we all believe btc will continue to grow in price till end of time (because thats what this above staement sound to me) then we shouldn't be concerned about buying at 60k or 100k,

what is the essence of having an asset you can never sell, buying and selling is part of economic circle, if everyone who own btc decided not to sell ever, then the rest people will not be able to buy a single sat Cheesy

, i know btc is valuable asset but the Not to Sell Ever is taking things to the extreme and will not be healthy for the growth of btc.

poodle63

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If their customers cashing out their money the institutional investors like you mentioned won't deduct some amount from their bitcoin investment but get the money from their own cash and I think in this case the institutional investors who have the guts to buy btc at such price and hoping the price to get high as well so they could sell because they know that the mass adoption for cryptocurrency is coming and by that time the price of btc gonna go up and due to the mass adoption the liquidity also there as well.
I'm pretty sure that they didn't but crypto without thinking of all the possibilties before hand but it's true that liquidity for when they cashing out could be hard to find without causing uproar in the market, that could also explains why they planned to hold the btc long term.

Poker Player

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Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

I think what Saylor says sums it all up. I don't think all companies that buy Bitcoin think exactly the same way, but I'm sure most think very much like him. Bitcoin is the best asset you can buy today, number 1. And as such, you shouldn't sell it. Ever. If you need cash, you can borrow, use to cash flow of the company or sell other assets but never the best asset in the world. Whether you buy it at $100k or $1M, it is the most powerful and scarce asset in the world, so the value will continue to grow.

davis196

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Quote

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

Big institutional investors have big portfolios full of different assets,so they are diversifying the risk.
Bitcoin is a risky asset,so they will have probably less than 5% of their portfolios in BTC.If the Bitcoin price goes down,this will affect a small portion of their portfolio,so the potential loss will be insignificant.
What do you mean by "stagnancy of liquidity"?Institutional investors are full with fiat money,the central banks will never let them run out of liquidity.

Obito

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They are called "investors " which means they are also driven by the desire to make profit, not a charity organisation, so yeah they are very capable of dumping their bags of btc anytime they see fit, just as they enter into the market without any approval so also they will exit without seeking approval, this somehow the disadvantage of having this institutions as investors because they have the financial means to control the market.

I wouldn't say that anytime because these institutional investors are calculating when it comes to when they are going to dump their coins, it's not something that an individual investor will do where you can just dump it anytime you want, they are going to find a way to maximize their profit when they dump their coins. Even if they have the means to control the market, the market can still recover as long as there are participants in the market.

GreatArkansas

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Quote from: tygeade on April 25, 2021, 08:31:58 PM

Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 05:00:33 PM

Who crashed btc? Was it your 'small group of buyers that became whales' to move btc more than 7% in a day?

Without doubts, that are whales; it can be an old bitcoiner or a new institutions and in my opinion both do not have big differences. Moreover, there are more chances for old bitcoiners to cash out right now compared to institutions that started collecting bitcoins around $5k to $10k.
(....)

If you take a look at this chart, this is ALL EXCHANGES INFLOW MEAN for Bitcoin, which an on-chain analysis showing the inflow of Bitcoins into exchanges.
I got a strong thought, that most of the sellers recently are retail investors, could be whales or non-whales.
I am sure, that institutional investors were able to buy cheap Bitcoin during the around $48,000 -$49,000 dips.

crwth

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Whether they are publicly traded, private, government, or ETF-like companies, those different types of companies have another asset in their accounts for sure, and one of them is cash. So if somehow, some investors are going to pull out their specific investment on an asset in the company, they would give them money or another reserve. It's not like they are just going to use it all at once.

They can provide that volume to produce dumps later on, but I doubt it's their goal to do that. They are betting on it to see if people will ride with them and modernize the financing institutions.

tygeade

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Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 05:00:33 PM

Who crashed btc? Was it your 'small group of buyers that became whales' to move btc more than 7% in a day?

Without doubts, that are whales; it can be an old bitcoiner or a new institutions and in my opinion both do not have big differences. Moreover, there are more chances for old bitcoiners to cash out right now compared to institutions that started collecting bitcoins around $5k to $10k.

Institutions might be collecting bitcoins vigorously/blindly but at the same time they might be cashing out as well to remain highly liquidated so that they could pay their customers on demand (I guess only inside people could confirm this). If they have not planned up anything like that then probably I got better risk management to handle my loans and bitcoin stash Wink

.

2double0

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I'm not quoting anybody here but a question: Who crashed btc? Was it your 'small group of buyers that became whales' to move btc more than 7% in a day?

Hedging against inflation? Do you think traders give a fuck to the technology btc holds? Do most traders even understand what bitcoin mining is? What a miner is? All they need is quick money overnight and since institutions have joined this space, exchanges have used a very 'decent' way of making all the traders a fool by increasing the fee too much that no trader even thinks of moving their btc out of the exchange which either motivates that trader to hold their btc on the exchange and may even lose it by trading there (their choice) in spot or futures if the trader is a noob, or demotivates an enthusiast who wants to explore the beauty of how it all works, how btc moves from one wallet to another. This is only why btc is increasing in price because it's stored on exchanges and not in the hands of an average investor any more.

aoluain

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Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

https://bitcointreasuries.org

snip

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

Lets travel back to around this time in 2013 when Bitcoin was priced around €130,
Could they have comprehend that people 8 years later would be buying Bitcoin
at €50,000 and €60,000? I doubt it very much

Fast forward another 8 years, I'll bet people will be looking back at €100,000 and
wishing they had bought Bitcoin when they had the chance.

As regards stagnancy of liquidity, the elephant in the room is the imminent reactions
to inflation after this pandemic is brought under control. Bitcoin is seen by many,
Microstrategy's Michael Saylor being the most vociferous, as being the best store of
value and of course hedge against inflation so its only a matter of time before more
investors enter the space, i dont think there will be a liquidity problem.

Gozie51

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Quote from: 2double0 on April 25, 2021, 03:30:39 PM

After visiting there, all of you can see that how institutional investors are 'blindly' collecting bitcoins and adding more and more btc to their treasuries. I am too much curious and confused to understand how they will manage to sell all of their btc if some day a big dump arrives, or if their investors start to take out their investments and ask them to sell the btc and pay them. For an institution to pull out their btc from their wallets and sell, there needs to be an institution or a very big whale on the other hand to buy all that and they will also need that much big liquidity for the same.

The sale of bitcoin from the whales won't even make the price to drop and do you know why ? The reason is a whale selling means another whale buying. And whales will not be able to convince and coordinate each other to sell at once. So you see how it can be very difficult thing to do. And even small buyers may turn to become a current whale.

Quote

Please visit the link above first before reading anything here.

The link is nothing more than the numbers of institutional bitcoin hodlers.

[/quote]

2double0

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https://bitcointreasuries.org

Please visit the link above first before reading anything here.

After visiting there, all of you can see that how institutional investors are 'blindly' collecting bitcoins and adding more and more btc to their treasuries. I am too much curious and confused to understand how they will manage to sell all of their btc if some day a big dump arrives, or if their investors start to take out their investments and ask them to sell the btc and pay them. For an institution to pull out their btc from their wallets and sell, there needs to be an institution or a very big whale on the other hand to buy all that and they will also need that much big liquidity for the same.

Now, a very common logic, which institution would like to buy btc at $100k or even at million dollars when the seller institution is already taking out big profits in fiat by selling their btc to the buyer Institution? Won't that btc be coming with an impermanent loss if the price dumps later? Do you think there is any point where a stagnancy of liquidity or financial crunch may affect the price of btc so badly that it can reverse down like it did in the 2018 crash?

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