Topic: Are we legally associated with advertised services? - page 2. (Read 649 times)

Don't compare yourself to celebrities because laws are different for you and for them. Okay, let the police forces arrest you for possession of hard drugs and then compare yourself to the celebrities who were arrested for the possession of hard drugs. You'll easily end up in jail but celebrities will still be free because it's the fame, status, money that protects them from everything. Imagine Lionel Messi decided to use drugs, do you really believe that any government ever arrest him? Can you imagine what would happen in the world if any police force arrest him?

Wearing the signature on this forum to me looks like wearing a company's t-shirt in public. How can anyone arrest me if I wear some company's logo and url? Even if I print amphetamine logo on my t-shirt and paint a tattoo on my face, I think I'm safe.

What I mean is being specific if you have an affiliate code and working as an affiliate you are directly recruiting and you are directly working on the site and actively recruiting because you are getting paid based on the action of your referrals you have your own affiliate account your own affiliate manager and you are putting up a budget to promote a project.

Whereas in a signature campaign, you are doing specific you are just posting in a forum so your signature space will show up the project you are promoting, other than that you are not doing anything more, Google is showing ads but they aren't affiliate on those ads, Facebook is showing ads and accepting payment but they are not affiliated to those products and services.
It's a bit different for a promoter working on a desk and getting direct instructions from the managers or owners and a guy just getting paid or hired to distribute flyers.

Affiliate code isn't necessary to be considered affiliated. The fact that I'm getting paid from them to advertise them does add an affiliation.

I didn't say the project scams. I said it launders money. The former can be instantly detected, while the latter may not be detected ever.

I'm more than sure that law enforcement will focus on the prosperity of a service that is proved to launder money.

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Also, just because it happened once with 1xbit, it doesn't mean the court will penalize in the same manner, regardless the service.

That won't be feasible in the forum since the forum cancels any project once it's dictated to be a scam project. I think the law enforcement agencies only focus on the advertisers if they promote a company which has been classified scam. According to OP's complaint, I'd say if the project is working fine and you promote them it's not a problem. The problem begins when you promote a known scam that's wrong. It's not your fault if a genuine company turned a scam in future. You are not guilty by any means. Look at 1xbit the promoters are getting negative reviews in the forum for promoting a known scam it's actually their fault and members can be considered guilty for promoting them, because they help in deceiving people.

Let's take it to the outside world, celebrities like DJ Khaled, May weather etc in 2018 was charged for promoting a scam project using their social media platform. These people are influential in the society and can easily be detected if they do anything fishy with their influence on people. In such situation they'll be considered guilty and fined for misleading their followers.  Here in the forum, you are not having followers, but people can trust you, therefore trusting any company you promote here too, if need arises for investigation on you for promoting a company, you'll be charged according to what you got paid. Though, it's rare because how would all the participants get charged to pay regarding the difference in locations and identity.

The laws differ country by country, but there should be a general understanding of the whole scenario.
In my country I have seen ponzi schemes and/or scammers who advertised on national TV and Radio stations and in the end when the scam must have manifested, no agency went to the radio stations or TV to sue them or implicate for whatever reason.
I think that should be our fate in this forum, unless other countries policies differ.

I guess all the lawyers will say that too, the main developer or operator is the one who has the burden on all the cases because he is commissioning a campaign to pay people to promote.

Majority of the campaign here do not have affiliate code so they are not really earning from commissions only from posting and showing the banner from their signature campaign, maybe if they are actually leading people or recruiting people directly and they made money from recruiting like they do on Ponzi schemes like Bitconnect, then there's legal liability.

I addressed a lawyer. Positive answer. No direct association.

You don't know what a service does behind your back, though. An entire exchange which were accounted for billions of dollars was caught to launder money. And there are obviously countless of similar, other examples. Sure, I might trust ChipMixer, but in this crazy world we live in, despite the odds it launders their money, we even might have "mixing bitcoin" an illegal activity.

I think that this case of signature campaign advertisements is very different from the other ones. Here, you just wear the signature and that's all, you don't have to suggest and don't recommend anyone to use the product/website that's in your signature, you don't have to review the website you promote and you just can say zero word about it. You just wear it under signature and that's all, how can I be legally charged for anything if the service turns into scam?
I mean, imagine I wear Balenciaga's t-shirt and the next day I hear news in TV that this company runs bad campaign, etc (you probably know what happened around it recently). Am I legally associated with Balenciaga this way? Should I be charged because I wear their T-shirt with their logo and somehow promote them? Even if I am a celebrity and the company pays me money to wear their t-shirts, I think that I can't be touched.

Let's say you are and the CEO of the projects were caught for illegal service providing. How whoever the authority it is, will find you. You are in an anonymous forum, most likely browsing using TOR. It's not easy to find you.

May be a lawyer will tell you better. But personally I do not care. I live free, die free. It's hard but bitcoin gave me an opportunity.

It all comes down to this.

and also this:
From where I am from, some influencers were investigated for their participation in promoting a gambling platform on social media.

Like others have pointed out, authorities will have a harder time if you're anonymous but you might still be subjected to a probe.

I think it is clear at this stage that the answer to the OP's question is no, with some nuance.

Many of you are thinking of campaigns that you've been in for quite a long time, as I think the OP seems to be, but a lot of people are in one campaign for a couple of weeks or months, then another, then another, and so on. The courts are not going to waste time investigating who is behind a nick that got paid $70 a week for 9 weeks to advertise a service that has been outlawed in that jurisdiction, but maybe in the jurisdiction where the person behind the nick lives it is not illegal or there are no laws about it.

Search Engines like Google literary advertise Ponzi schemes, exit scams, phishing sites every day for so many years, but I have never heard of a lawsuit against them for advertising even when known frauds such as Ponzi schemes or 1xbit

I think this is also similar to advertised service here, except that most service advertised here aren't even scams at the time of being advertised, with a few exceptions.

You didn't sign any contracts so you will not get associated on what might happen to the company do in future. For sure you will not in the list of their employee so if you are worried about anything like the scamming that might happen to the platform you advertise or to any other then you are not included to number of people who will do or seek a solution on their problem.

I think it will depends on how popular you are and what's your power/position on that's project.

If you're the owner, co-owner, or someone that built the project from the start, high likely you will need to face legal problem if there's a police sanction or take down the project.

If you're very popular person and everyone recognize your name, face, etc you could be follow the same path like I previously said.

But if you're just advertise the project using your account in this forum and there's no personal information you've give to anyone, IMO you will be safe since there's no way to verify you and they have no idea which person own the account.

Like I said, unless they subpoena the forum but the BFL labs case is a little different as they were probably trying to find out information about the people behind it. Also, like I said, err on the side of caution if you're worried. Law Enforcement could always decide to go after people who were advertising a service they deem illegal but unless it's a ponzi or some other scam then I think the chances of them wasting time trying to find out who was advertising a service on a message board would be slim though obviously not impossible.


They can and will go after Ponzi promoters etc. A fair few youtubers ended up getting into trouble for promoting these things to their audience even though they weren't directly involved they were making money from their referrals etc and spreading the scam to a larger audience. I think some even went to jail for it. Didn't some high profile celebs like Floyd Mayweather and Kim Kardashian also get into trouble for promoting pump and dumps and unregistered securities related to crypto coins as well? Those things are a little different to promoting other services but the legality of such will vary from region to region. Gambling sites are illegal in many counties for instance. I'm sure even bitcoin by itself is illegal to use in many countries too.

I assume I and the company I am promoting here don't have an employer-employee relationship. I don't have to know them and they of me. Besides, there is no signed and notarized contract or agreement both of us entered to. In which case, I have no legal claim whatsoever of whatever benefits the company deserves to provide its employees. And the company itself doesn't list me as one of its employees.

At most, I am like a worker that is hired by a third-party agency. The company doesn't have responsibilities over me and I of them. I am only answerable to my campaign manager. The CM pays me according to the agreed price. Whatever agreement the CM and the company undertake, I'm not involved.

I'm not even under the company's payroll. I'm probably only under a specific marketing expense.

In the case that I'm promoting an illegal service, however, I will be held legally responsible over my actions. But it's not because I'm part of the company but because I knowingly and willingly promote something illegal.

I believe those were actual employees, and not someone just advertising the services. They would've had reason to believe that x belonged to y, and that would've been included in the subpeona. Like LoyceV said; the advertisement industry would be absolutely dead if advertisers were held responsible for advertising scams. However, if you advertise an illegal service, that could potentially land you in some trouble. Since a lot of the campaigns users advertise here are legitimate businesses that have been operating for years, this isn't likely to be a concern for many.

However, if the authorities expect you're related to the service any other way other than advertising, and have some convincing evidence to back that up; they will likely take it further, and include it in the request to theymos for more information. It's up to theymos then if he complies, and to what extent. Generally, he'd have to comply given the evidence was strong enough.

 Tor! Tor! Tor!


Really?

https://ia801909.us.archive.org/6/items/gov.uscourts.ksd.97083/gov.uscourts.ksd.97083.68.1.pdf
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bfl-subpoena-1027518
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/dpr-subpoena-881488

I've see The US doing it with 2 or 3 huge MLM or HYIPs scams such as Genius Funds 10-15 years ago. Giving trouble to people they considered promoters affiliated. I'm talking about scams but it doesn't matter, I mean the point is they can decide you're part of the scheme

Adding, but I may be wrong, that Theymos mentionned he doesn't care subponeas coming from outside The USA (his country I guess).
(that's years ago)

And see his reply to @Quickseller .
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50817904


NSA on my curriculum vitae... Not so bad...

It would really depend on where you are located.
Here in the US there is a big emphasis on Mens rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
So there is the element of what is going on. Using your HSBC example they knew, but it was going to be just about impossible to prove who knew what and when.

If some shifty looking person shows up at my shop and I take in a few thousand in cash and take a cut and give it back with a 1099 tax form it's fairly obvious what I was doing.

So that is going to be a big part of it.

If you are wearing a signature for Bob's Meth and Heroin shop it's going to be a much more difficult thing to talk your way out of then say [looks down at signature] ChipMixer which is a legit service for people who just don't want to be tracked.

-Dave

But he's not a large bank. Banks and other large scale businesses operate under different rules to the rest of us. HSBC was caught knowingly laundering a billion dollars for the Mexican cartel and nobody went to prison. They just paid a 2 billion fine which is probably a couple of weeks profit for them and then move on. If you laundered even a few thousand you'd go to jail and pay fines. For banks it's just a calculated risk and they'll take the chance knowing that even if they get caught they'll just pay the fees and carry on.

https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-news-for-jan-29-hsbcs-money-laundering-scandal-hbc-scbff-ing-cs-rbs0129.aspx
https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/hsbc-laundering-mexican-cartel-blackhurst-b2097490.html