Argentina Debt Crisis: U.S. Demands 1.5 billion cash (Bitcoin to Rescue?)

ShakyhandsBTCer

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

Quote from: Morbid on June 24, 2014, 11:56:47 AM

as far as i know argentina has some sort of a dollar cult there. nobody wants peso but dollar is like forbidden fruit for average mortals. though dollar black market is thriving there. i believe that unlike in cyprus where those loosing most money being well informed investors driving the price up, in argentina situation might be different as btc is now having much larger market cap and amount of people getting into it will be limited to a small number of wealthy people who already hold dollar. if there to be foreign btc traders on the ground, would they buy pesos?

to me the situation looks like fed is desperate to have some usd demand not minding collapsing a country or two in the process.

their currency is very volatile and their citizens do not like to use it as they don't know how much their money will buy from day to day

albus

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Quote from: Diana Clark on June 24, 2014, 08:39:55 AM

Everybody that has a computer has a TAX HAVEN. Who needs Switzerland when you have anonymity and an encrypted hard drive.

Love that!!

Just afraid that at some point governments are going to try getting back those taxes they're missing!

Harley997

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Quote from: Diana Clark on June 24, 2014, 08:39:55 AM

Quote from: candydaze59 on June 17, 2014, 02:18:40 PM

Am i the only one who sees the "Cyprus 2011" story here ? Grin

Cyprus, Argentina..the first of many.

On another note, now that alt coins are developing true anonymity, the governments are really screwed. Tax revenues will drop like a rock. Everybody that has a computer has a TAX HAVEN. Who needs Switzerland when you have anonymity and an encrypted hard drive.

So in reality, the governments are driving the growth of virtual currencies. Adopter just need to be patient and let the gov do their part.

It isn't so much governments that are driving the growl of virtual currencies it is governments that are unable to meet their obligations.

Morbid

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http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/06/could-argentina-default-on-its-debt.html

Quote

At this point, there are two possible outcomes. Either Argentina negotiates with the holdout creditors (since paying them back in full is all but impossible), or it defaults on its debt. Depending on whom you talk to, these eventualities count as two options or one; some argue that a default is inevitable, because even if Argentina negotiates with the holdouts, those talks are doomed to fail. Blitzer is not one of these skeptics; he thinks that if Argentina shows that it’s seriously willing to negotiate, the courts and the creditors will be obliging. “No one thinks a hard default would be in anyone’s interest.”

Payments on the restructured bonds come due on June 30th; after that, there’s a monthlong grace period—some maneuvering room—and then Argentina will officially be missing its payments on the bonds it has spent years trying to pay back. There are, in theory, ways for Kirchner to save face while negotiating with the holdouts. She could push for another haircut on the claims or angle for a lower rate of interest on the bonds in question; she could also request a longer period over which to pay back creditors, which would make repayment less painful in the short term.

edit:

Quote

A few weeks ago, the Financial Times turned up a confidential memo written by Argentina’s American lawyers to the Argentine minister of economy and public finance. Dated May 2nd, the document details what Argentina could do next, legally speaking, should the Supreme Court deny its petition. At the time, the lawyers were considering a hypothetical, and brainstorming; now the document is being scrutinized as a plan of action. The lawyers wrote, “The best option for the Republic could be to permit the Supreme Court to force a default and then immediately restructure all of the external bonds so that the payment mechanism and the other related elements are outside the reach of the American courts.” This would mean reissuing the bonds under local, Argentine law, rather than on the New York market. This would be hard to pull off, according to Charles Blitzer and Anna Gelpern. But the tack is revealing: Argentina is desperate.

guess which payment mechanism would be most suitable one in such scenario? everybody's breathing down their necks.

Cicero2.0

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Quote from: Schinder75 on June 24, 2014, 08:51:10 AM

I think it's not a problem of capitalism. The problem is the money system itself likes it's implented in the world.

Where does money come from? Every $ running around is the debt someone has made at some point. Money and debt is essentially the same. To put new money in the system, it's only possible by credits. But each credit has an interest rate. So the sum of all debts incl. interest is always higher than the amount of existing money.

Money is no longer for payment, it's more like a weapon. Economic hitman it's called. Put countries in the debt trap and get all out of the country that has value. This results in destroyed countries and helpless people.

To keep the system running, more and more debts are needed. The wheel turns faster and faster. And now we are at a point where it's obviuosly that the system will not work any longer. Argentina, Cyprus lots more to come. The only advantage the USA has is that they can print there own money. If they cannot do that, USA would be 3rd world country instant.

And here is the chance of bitcoin to make this f**ing world a more fair.

A bit mafia like isn't it? Get a business owner into debt then use their credit lines to acquire merchandise, sell said merchandise and leave the owner in banruptcy.

Morbid

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as far as i know argentina has some sort of a dollar cult there. nobody wants peso but dollar is like forbidden fruit for average mortals. though dollar black market is thriving there. i believe that unlike in cyprus where those loosing most money being well informed investors driving the price up, in argentina situation might be different as btc is now having much larger market cap and amount of people getting into it will be limited to a small number of wealthy people who already hold dollar. if there to be foreign btc traders on the ground, would they buy pesos?

to me the situation looks like fed is desperate to have some usd demand not minding collapsing a country or two in the process.

spinf

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less corrupted probably, but not sure about fairness when you look at bitcoin wealth distribution...
Latecomers from developing countries will have a hard time coming in the game

Schinder75

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I think it's not a problem of capitalism. The problem is the money system itself likes it's implented in the world.

Where does money come from? Every $ running around is the debt someone has made at some point. Money and debt is essentially the same. To put new money in the system, it's only possible by credits. But each credit has an interest rate. So the sum of all debts incl. interest is always higher than the amount of existing money.

Money is no longer for payment, it's more like a weapon. Economic hitman it's called. Put countries in the debt trap and get all out of the country that has value. This results in destroyed countries and helpless people.

To keep the system running, more and more debts are needed. The wheel turns faster and faster. And now we are at a point where it's obviuosly that the system will not work any longer. Argentina, Cyprus lots more to come. The only advantage the USA has is that they can print there own money. If they cannot do that, USA would be 3rd world country instant.

And here is the chance of bitcoin to make this f**ing world a more fair.

Diana Clark

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Quote from: candydaze59 on June 17, 2014, 02:18:40 PM

Am i the only one who sees the "Cyprus 2011" story here ? Grin

Cyprus, Argentina..the first of many.

On another note, now that alt coins are developing true anonymity, the governments are really screwed. Tax revenues will drop like a rock. Everybody that has a computer has a TAX HAVEN. Who needs Switzerland when you have anonymity and an encrypted hard drive.

So in reality, the governments are driving the growth of virtual currencies. Adopter just need to be patient and let the gov do their part.

Erdogan

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Quote from: ArnoldChippy on June 24, 2014, 02:50:00 AM

Someone needs to explain which version of capitalism we're using because if there's one thing I'm sure about, it is that markets are not free.

There is only one, and that is where markets are free. Now you have to understand what free is: Actors may buy or sell without being forced physically, not held and not pushed around, and also are not subject to fraud.

Edit: If the market changes due to other causes, like the coffee price rises if there is a bad summer, that is not unfree. Also if the price changes due to other actors freely enters bids or asks, is also not unfree. Only when other individuals alone or in association uses force not compatible with the above rights, is it unfree.

A typical non-free market nowadays, is where some entity by means of physical force reserves for itself all selling or all buying, or grants it to a privileged company. The same to a lesser degree if that entity demands taxes or fees. This doesn't mean that the price function is destroyed, rather it is skewed. The stamp fee on house sales is an example. Most markets are mostly free, with a small tax placed on everyone alike, including neighbouring markets. There is only one market, the global one, if you take the birds view.

The interest rate market, which should among other things regulate the volume of investment contra consumption, is grossly skewed by the hand of the central banks.

ArnoldChippy

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Someone needs to explain which version of capitalism we're using because if there's one thing I'm sure about, it is that markets are not free.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: ebliever on June 23, 2014, 10:33:30 PM

Quote from: Beliathon on June 23, 2014, 10:21:57 PM

Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 23, 2014, 09:53:33 PM

The investors have intercepted ships before to pay for the judgment. What is to say that that the goods from China (in this example) could not be intercepted in route to Argentina?

"So what if they need the food/clothes/materials to build shelter, WE NEED OUR PROFITS MORE! We earned that money fair and square!"

Capitalism always eventually devolves down to its root violence/force, doesn't it?

Your perception of capitalism and the alternatives is precisely backwards. The only alternative to free markets (capitalism) is unfree markets, in which one party is coercively forced into a transaction they would otherwise not make. It sounds like you have some experience with these unfree markets and have been brainwashed into calling them capitalism, when they are the precise opposite. Socialists are well known in the real world for their sequestration of profits "for the good of the people" into their own pockets, the needs of the people notwithstanding. The poverty of communism, the mediocre living standards of socialism, and the gulags and prison camps of such societies are proof enough of that.

In a free-market system (if there are any that remain in the world today), if one party is being coerced they should have redress under the rule of law in the courts and other public venues to make their case and seek redress. It is through the rule of law and voluntary transactions between equal, free parties that you will find a solution to your ills, not in desiring to lord it over other institutions and doing unto them as you perceive they've done unto you.

+1. By definition, laissez faire capitalism prohibits inititiary force against innocent value producers. All other systems including socialism, communism, etc require force backed by threats of violence.

Not sure if he is open minded enough to understand your post. Brainwash is an apt term here.

ebliever

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Quote from: Beliathon on June 23, 2014, 10:21:57 PM

Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 23, 2014, 09:53:33 PM

The investors have intercepted ships before to pay for the judgment. What is to say that that the goods from China (in this example) could not be intercepted in route to Argentina?

"So what if they need the food/clothes/materials to build shelter, WE NEED OUR PROFITS MORE! We earned that money fair and square!"

Capitalism always eventually devolves down to its root violence/force, doesn't it?

Your perception of capitalism and the alternatives is precisely backwards. The only alternative to free markets (capitalism) is unfree markets, in which one party is coercively forced into a transaction they would otherwise not make. It sounds like you have some experience with these unfree markets and have been brainwashed into calling them capitalism, when they are the precise opposite. Socialists are well known in the real world for their sequestration of profits "for the good of the people" into their own pockets, the needs of the people notwithstanding. The poverty of communism, the mediocre living standards of socialism, and the gulags and prison camps of such societies are proof enough of that.

In a free-market system (if there are any that remain in the world today), if one party is being coerced they should have redress under the rule of law in the courts and other public venues to make their case and seek redress. It is through the rule of law and voluntary transactions between equal, free parties that you will find a solution to your ills, not in desiring to lord it over other institutions and doing unto them as you perceive they've done unto you.

Beliathon

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https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU

Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 23, 2014, 09:53:33 PM

The investors have intercepted ships before to pay for the judgment. What is to say that that the goods from China (in this example) could not be intercepted in route to Argentina?

"So what if they need the food/clothes/materials to build shelter, WE NEED OUR PROFITS MORE! We earned that money fair and square!"

Capitalism always eventually devolves down to its root violence/force, doesn't it?

ShakyhandsBTCer

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

Quote from: Littleshop on June 21, 2014, 09:43:14 PM

Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 21, 2014, 04:16:35 PM

Quote from: Littleshop on June 20, 2014, 01:21:06 PM

Quote from: thecoindoctor on June 20, 2014, 01:00:05 PM

Quote from: abercrombie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:30 PM

U.S. wants 1.5 billion cash, Argentina says they can't but are willing to settle. Â

If I were in Argentina, I'd be moving my savings to Bitcoin ASAP.

Argentina: Won't submit to 'extortion' on debt

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/High-court-rejects-Argentina-s-appeal-over-debt-5555358.php#photo-6463213

Why would they need to move it to bitcoin?

Really it's too late for that. But the point would be if it was in Bitcoin he could not be seized. The private investors will be attempting to seize assets all over the world including even things like spacelaunch contracts.

Even if they had it in bitcoin, private investors could seize whatever assets Argentina were to buy with their bitcoin when they go to spend it

Depends on how they did things. If they only spend the BTC in places that don't recognize the debt they will be fine. If the debt was not valid in China, they could purchase items in China shipped directly to Argentina. I am not advocating this, I am just pointing it out.

The investors have intercepted ships before to pay for the judgment. What is to say that that the goods from China (in this example) could not be intercepted in route to Argentina?

Swordsoffreedom

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Quote from: NotAtOld on June 23, 2014, 05:59:50 AM

Western Union now prohibits sending money to the USA from Argentina, so Bitcoin may be the only way out.

That would make sense since they need money to prevent their currency collapsing and are shutting out all the channels
In my opinion though you are right to get money out of that country you would use Bitcoin
Getting money in is easier though lol.

NotAtOld

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Western Union now prohibits sending money to the USA from Argentina, so Bitcoin may be the only way out.

Littleshop

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Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 21, 2014, 04:16:35 PM

Quote from: Littleshop on June 20, 2014, 01:21:06 PM

Quote from: thecoindoctor on June 20, 2014, 01:00:05 PM

Quote from: abercrombie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:30 PM

U.S. wants 1.5 billion cash, Argentina says they can't but are willing to settle. Â

If I were in Argentina, I'd be moving my savings to Bitcoin ASAP.

Argentina: Won't submit to 'extortion' on debt

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/High-court-rejects-Argentina-s-appeal-over-debt-5555358.php#photo-6463213

Why would they need to move it to bitcoin?

Really it's too late for that. But the point would be if it was in Bitcoin he could not be seized. The private investors will be attempting to seize assets all over the world including even things like spacelaunch contracts.

Even if they had it in bitcoin, private investors could seize whatever assets Argentina were to buy with their bitcoin when they go to spend it

Depends on how they did things. If they only spend the BTC in places that don't recognize the debt they will be fine. If the debt was not valid in China, they could purchase items in China shipped directly to Argentina. I am not advocating this, I am just pointing it out.

Beliathon

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https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU

Debt is slavery.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: pening on June 20, 2014, 03:43:34 PM

Quote from: Beliathon on June 20, 2014, 01:09:36 PM

Bitcoin offers our first real opportunity to move past the "might makes right" paradigm of capitalism and the nation-state, and move toward a more just, equal, sane world that is governed by reason. We damn well better take it.

For all the bluff and bluster, I don't think you really even understand what capitalism is. I think you are confusing it with something else, political systems probably. Bitcoin is fundamentally capitalist and a future based on it would certainly not do anything to alleviate problems of equality - those with will be richer than those without. Bitcoin has no impact either way on the concepts of nation states, which are not defined by their use of currency. Capitalism doesn't care for violence, that's a socio-political matter, not for economics. If profit can be made from violence, it certainly will be, but greater profit and more importantly productivity can be made without violence, so that's where the real capitalist want to be. And "Wage-slavery" is a trite term, an oxymoron that doesn't understand what actual slavery really is, the affects or impact on the subjects of it. Other than that, you talk a lot of sense. Roll Eyes

True capitalism is lasseiz-faire capitalism. It's a french word meaning "let do". In this kind of system,
the only actions that are illegal are those of initiating force, frauds, or threats against others.
It is the antithesis of violence.

If you advocate anything else, then you are advocating, to various degrees, statism, socialism,
and force against the individual.

Topic: Argentina Debt Crisis: U.S. Demands 1.5 billion cash (Bitcoin to Rescue?) (Read 8906 times)