Topic: Argument against vaccines quite flawed - page 3. (Read 568 times)

Millions of people were dying, so the vaccines were developed with some urgency. There wasn't the luxury of waiting 30+ years to see if they are okay. But the vaccines have been through the full trials process, the data are publicly available, and they have been in use for over a year. Over 10 billion doses have been administered, and a huge number of lives have been saved. They are safe and effective, and their development is a huge triumph of modern science. I'm simply saying that in this context, saying "Yeah, they seem safe, but what if they aren't? Let's wait 30+ years to be sure" isn't the best option.



I spend a lot of my time in P&S refuting anti-vaxxer arguments that often come from bitchute, FB, or YouTube. This can range from carefully-curated misinformation based on selective evidence, to outright lies. I assumed, given your aversion to the data I present, that you fell into that category. If you don't, then apologies, I'm guilty of making a lazy assumption.
And I'm not denying that governments can be involved in secret agreements etc, of course they can be. But you are contending that 'my data', which usually comes from ourworldindata, is all corrupt and flawed. Please review the data sources page, and let me know if you do genuinely believe that all of these countries are working together in a secret conspiracy that somehow the general public knows nothing about.

This is not a traditional vaccine, and requires more long-term testing.. just judging it by the same protocols/standards of a traditional vaccine isn’t gonna do it for me.

In addition, it seems like several changes have happened to this 'technology' over the decade leading up to this, which should require new trials and further testing... but really, even 10 years isn't enough studies and research for me to ever want a mandate on a large population of people.. or even deem something like this 'safe' for the long-term.

On top of this, each manufacturer seems to have their own concoction of ingredients (which feels like experiments), with varying side effects. If you want to mandate a new "technology" of creating and delivering vaccines, which interacts with the human body in a new'ish way, then you better damn sure hope to have more wide-spread long term testing than what I have seen out there.

Even if you do *not* mandate it, still those people accepting it should understand they are in a large-scale trial/experiment. Calling it ‘safe’ in the long term, at this point, is not something I cannot really do for myself. Again, there could be an age/risk factor/etc that you might take this risk... but I can't imagine why anyone would deem this safe for younger kids.

I haven't seen any long nor short term studies/trials with kids, and minimal research done.. so it seems a bit crazy to me, but again, everyone has their own individual risk-benefit analysis they should do.. but mandates are completely out of the question, on any age group, IMO.

Aren't you assuming a future severe sickness or death was prevented, and/or symptoms reduced, from a prior vaccination in an individual?.. and then you 'prove' this assumption using the [flawed] data of unvaccinated people.

Using half-baked data to analyze future trends seems silly to me. At the end of the day, there is not enough mRNA vaccine research nor studies to cause me to feel "safe", and I can say that without a crystal ball. We’ve had the time to develop a traditional vaccine, I'd prefer they had went that route, but it may be too late.

I'm not sure what the random guy on youtube/bitchute reference is, as I didn't post anyone. I have minimal familiarity with bitchute, but there can be good sources on YouTube if you verify the content and who is saying it.

The only reference I had posted, which you seemed to have skipped over, was a long list of other products (even outdated), that big pharma has had 'approved', which have all been pulled from the market after staying for XX number of years, sometimes 30+, which all ended up doing damage to people, many of them including death. Should I bring up opioids?.. forgive me for not blindly running out to get 3 shots from the guys that run this industry.

As for conspiracies involving governments, if you are naive enough to believe governments do not conspire, then there is probably not much I could do to dissuade you either.

U can't change anything but rather comply with the prevention protocols which can help protect one from the virus that its so called existence is not yet accepted but most ppl and its vaccine holds alot of hesitancy.

The damage done from the so called covid vaccienes is so great that all vaccines a done with, only a matter of time.
This certified scam will sick the whole industrie.

The covid injections are not vaccines,the are just a course of pharma products with limited effectiveness.
The vaccines are a great way to prevent some infections,but are dangerous  when you are already infected.
The damage done to the reputation of true vaccines is unforgivable.

One cause of vaccine hesitancy is the inequality within* society that has been exacerbated by successive governments over the last few decades. More and more people feel disenfranchised, cast adrift, that the government is not interested in giving them the opportunities they need to succeed. People are trapped in low-wage jobs with no hope of escape, forced to watch as the richer parts of society pull ever farther away from them. People are divested of power and dignity, with no means of fighting back, because there is a widespread political consensus, and what differences do exist between parties are dwarfed by their similarities. It doesn't matter who these people vote for, they will never be the priority.

So if the government demands that everyone takes the vaccine, I think it's no real surprise if people grab hold of their last shred of dignity, their last shred of real autonomy and say "no, f- you". It is no coincidence that vaccine hesitancy is so much higher in poorer areas, and amongst left-behind groups.

Not saying this is the case with your aunt, or with anyone on this forum, other people have other reasons. But this is certainly one reason. If you feel that the government is playing you for a fool, and then someone on Facebook says "don't take the vaccine, the government is playing you for a fool"... then you will be more susceptible to their message, irrespective of its truth.

A good way to reduce vaccine hesitancy in the longer-term would be to give everyone a fairer chance in life. In the short-term, as a consequence of government behaviour, we have the question of (effectively) enforced vaccination... which would reduce the danger from the virus, but would amplify social division.

And of course people should take the vaccine, it may save their lives, and those of their friends and relatives, and help society as a whole. It's understandable why they won't, and this is quite an indictment of society.


* Within a society, not between societies, because a low income person in the US will see themselves as poor (relative to others in the US), not rich (relative to a billion people in Africa).

We all know that the risk of Covid outweighs the effect of the vaccine, but it should not be made compulsory. People are now scared to take the vaccine because they feel it will rewrite their DNA or make them semi-robots. The should not coerced to be vaccinated because they would blame the vaccine for any illness they face in future.

We have seen many false campaign against the vaccine which have really misinformed the people. Even my aunt furnished us with many videos and write ups that claimed that the vaccine was the mark of the beast. She gave us enough lectures and even link the vaccine to Bible prophecies.

Just last week she apologized and informed us that she had deceived us that the vaccine was not the mark of the beast.

I believe with time people would gradually shelve all this misconceptions and accept the vaccine voluntarily.

How could it show future case numbers and deaths? Unless you're talking about predictive modelling, which is something else entirely.
The data that I have shared, and that others have shared, are not only 'current', but also include trends over time.


The vaccines have all been through the usual trials, and the data for these are readily available. The vaccines have also been used by a huge number of people over the last year and a bit, and the picture there is very clear, too. Over the last year, the data show perfectly clearly that you are less likely to die from Covid if you've been vaccinated.
Your argument of 'we don't know what will happen in the future' seems a bit silly; you could use it against anything. If you want to understand what is likely to happen in the future, then do your own predictive modelling. You might want to start by extrapolating from existing trends.


^{[CITATION NEEDED]}
Have you looked at the sources of the data I present? If you are suggesting that there is a vast conspiracy involving governments, universities and professional bodies from pretty much every country in the world, but some random guy on youtube or facebook (or more often bitchute) is the only reputable source... then there's not much I can do to dissuade you.


I wouldn't trust the magic potions, when there are safe and effective vaccines available.

IMO they should never become mandatory and if they are I will protest against it not because I hate the idea of being vaccinated, but because I hate the idea of other people forcing me to undergo medical treatment of any kind. It should always be a person's choice and nobody should be treated against their will.
I feel like vaccines have more positive than negative effects, but they are not without any risks and it should be up to each of us to decide what's best. I have a rebellious nature and the more they push me, the more I resist.


Even worse, they're being legally robbed of their savings. In Austria there's a huge fine for those who don't undergo the treatment. I've read that it can be even 7k EUR, which is nuts. It's basically a way for the government to steal from people. You either do what they say or they'll keep fining you until you end up on homeless or leave the country.

We do know about COVID. The world was introduced to SARS-CoV-1 back in 2003, and SARS-CoV-2 is 90 percent homologous to the original virus.

And these viruses act similar to most other viruses in history, the structure is generally the same, the replication mechanism, and the illness pathophysiology is the same. We know that once you get infected, you remain immune from reinfection, unless there's infection from a distant strain that is unrecognized by your adaptive immune system.

The vaccines were approved after a 6 month trial, boosters were approved with even less data. Yet the recommendation is that all those above 5 years of age get vaccinated, and all those about their mid teens get boosted. There is no data for any of this stuff, and their blanket recommendations are being shoved down the throats of law abiding citizens who are expected to use these therapeutics when they might not need it. If they refuse, in some countries they are treated as second class citizens, unable to enjoy basic liberties.

Someone at a high risk category, say 60 years old, obese, would be better off with the vaccine and boosters given their health profile. The risk of severe illness from COVID clearly outweigh the risk of adverse vaccine effects, or any unknown long term effects. But change the health profile to someone, say, 14 years old and healthy. The chance of someone of this demographic having a serious COVID illness is virtually zero, therefore you're taking a gamble forcing them to get vaccinated.

A final note -- some of the side effects of the vaccine are fairly harsh, though people eventually get over them.

It was common thinking that the side effects originated from the spike proteins that were produced by the mRNA based vaccines. Turns out, the side effects might be caused by the lipid nanoparticles that encapsulate the mRNA (used as a delivery vehicle to reach the target area).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004221014504

It's only now, over a year later, that we are having these conversations. There's a lot still unknown about the vaccines, which is why it's best reserved for those who need it and are at high risk of COVID.

Data?  The data you all refer to only shows the current picture, nothing long-term, and nothing in the future. Medical scientists have repeatedly pushed out things that, in the short term, seem safe based on their "data"... only to discover years later *new data* shows it does various bad things to your body, including death.

Here are some.
Do you see some of the reasons for pulling these things off the market, sometimes 20-30+ years later after approval, and I'm sure plenty of "data".

Not to mention your 'data', from the first point of data collection, is flawed in political/financial corruption & apparent human error, all the way up the local, state, & federal hierarchy.. and then it's further spun by the media and politicians. The same politicians who typically have some form of political/financial pressure in the hierarchical collection and 'reporting' of the data to begin with.

Personally, I'm not willing to put that risk on me, and especially my children. Don't get me wrong, I don't want COVID, and there are simple things we all can do to slow and stop the spread, but we all seem to feel the need to rely on a magic potion, take off our masks, and jump in the COVID pool. Good luck with all them mutations and.. "boosters".. or should we accurately call them experiments?

People who know that there are still ways to get at data and info which corp/gov censors might be running across other information.  Such as this:

  Atheletes vaxx adverse reactions or dying-Volume 3
  https://www.bitchute.com/video/qIixgz5UbsyF/

Yeah, yeah, if you look at 'the data' and 'the science' (on the 'safe' media) then you will 'know' that these things are perfectly normal and they happen all the time.  Or that it's all because of the effects of 'covid-19'...even though it didn't seem to be happening in 2020 what the plandemic was 'raging' and the de-pop shots were not rolled out yet.

Sorry, people are not that stupid.  More and more they can figure out what they are seeing.  No more chumps lining up to get the de-pop shot.  The chumps who did got it under EUA have only themselves to fall back on for help as the get sick and die on their march out of the gene pool.

People who are uncertain about taking the vaccine should look at the data. Vaccines have been available for over a year, now. The protection they confer against both severe disease and also any level of infection is quite clear. Once you look at and understand the data, then the decision should be obvious.

However many people are already convinced, and have been since the start, that the vaccines are unsafe and full of nanobots or miniaturised 5G masts or a tiny robot Bill Gates who will rewrite their DNA, or other such nonsense. These people will disregard all data as their decision has already been reached.

I suppose there is a third set of people who are in poor health, with pre-existing conditions, for whom even a safe vaccine could be dangerous. These people should take the advice of professionals on a case-by-case basis.

That's right, it all depends on the government in their respective countries.
Like in my country, there are still some people contra with giving vaccine and who refuse to be vaccinated, because they are lazy and tired of injecting vaccines up to 2 or 3 times. For this reason, the goverment makes desicion such as, entering into the public environment, such as markets, malls or cinemas, must have a vaccine certificate for at least the first dose.
And then the community wants to participate in carrying out government programs, in which all people are required to vaccinate.
Until today the government in my country is very effective.

I can see several post from people that do not want to get a vaccine and feel strongly against making these mandatory. Firstly, I do respect people who opt not to get vaccinated and I even know 1 very experienced doctor with access to excellent research sources that decided not to get the jabs.

The vaccines are clearly not tested to the standard that other vaccines require to be admitted in the markets. I understand that this means that their safety may not be sufficiently tested and may cause secondary issues. However, the virus and variants of COVID are also quite new and their effects also quite unknown. The only certain thing is that earlier variants were very aggressive on the lower respiratory system.

So, would you change the uncertainty about the vaccine being unsafe for the uncertainty about the virus being equally unknown and certainly unsafe short term??